Sat 17 Sep 2016 | 03:06

All Blacks too strong for error-ridden Springbok challenge in Christchurch

26 Comments

• rugbydump

  4:27 PM 28/09/2016

  Thanks FoXtroT. Nicely put together
• drg

  6:39 PM 21/09/2016

  Hahah, it is tradition along wiz our fine wine and cheezes...
  
  Actually that was an incredible moment before 2015 RWC when I heard that there was an ask for court intervention to the SA team travelling! It was unbelievable!
• vladimir

  4:00 PM 21/09/2016

  Brilliant report. Also, the similitudes with french rugby are astounding.
• danknapp

  3:43 PM 21/09/2016

  Yes, but the French decision to employ bad coaches who fail to get the team to play well is simply tradition, it isn't legally imposed.
• drg

  8:47 AM 21/09/2016

  Brilliant read Foxtrot, and you Stroudos!
  
  If time wasn't a factor a coach would turn around and pick "beast" (a deserved player) and the rest could be uncapped or 'anything' black players... Have no white players at all and then just watch the mess unfold...
  
  The problem as said is that it's self defeating, disheartening and all in all wrong. Habana for instance, I believe, is not included in the quota because he is mixed race... Therefore as far as anyone is concerned he's "white"... How bloody racist is that coming from a bunch that want something equal?!?! And as I've said numerous times if you are picking a team and your choices are 'the beast' or a white not as good equivalent.... Who would you choose?
  
  Investing in grass roots so that young black kids want to get into rugby instead of football is the only way forwards. Not forcing quotas!
• foxtrot

  8:25 AM 21/09/2016

  No worries. Its a pretty salient point in South Africa.
  
  The funny thing is, although Coetzee showed his hand early on that he was buying into the whole transformation thing. He has actually, in many ways, acted like Meyer did. I think his teams have been even less representative.
  
  He has also done the same thing to Paige as Meyer did as well as doing it to Mbonambi; ie only giving them 5 min off the bench if at all. But he hasn't been blasted for it.
• stroudos

  8:02 AM 21/09/2016

  Thanks for that comprehensive account. A very interesting read, albeit a bit depressing!
  
  The whole concept of "positive discrimination" seems doomed to fail to me. Noble in its intentions, it surely just leads to people being put into jobs they either don't want or aren't qualified to do.
  
  If you'll indulge a tenuous analogy, last night I heard a radio interview with CEO of the UK's Royal Institute for the Blind (RNIB). When asked if the RNIB should employ more blind/visually impaired people themselves, she said well actually many of those people say they don't want to be "given" a job out of pity, and it's not the RNIB's mission to give jobs to people unless you're the right ones for those jobs. They work hard to make sure jobs are accessible and that if they can demonstrate their ability then any obstacles must be removed.
  
  I'm sure we can all understand why ANC people would feel the desire to go to such extremes, but they must be able to see that these policies will be ultimately self-defeating.
  
  Apologies for focusing on only one of the many points you made.
• breakaway

  5:51 AM 21/09/2016

  "Wouldn't you rather beat a BOK team that is as strong as they could be?"
  
  Yes. And to be honest, I don't personally know of any true rugby fan who thinks differently. But as DrG says, the only people who can sort this out and improve the situation are the rugby people of South Africa.
• foxtrot

  7:51 PM 20/09/2016

  Of course he digs himself an even bigger hole when he doesn't give Rudy Paige much game time in the 'sure win' against the USA or the dead rubber playoff against Argentina. Again he is pilloried by government, the public and even SARU for his 'racism' (even though many a white player has seen the same treatment).
  
  The result is a coach who pretty much looks like he has had a nervous breakdown and resigns over the hopelessness of the situation.
  
  SARU doesn't immediately look for or appoint a new coach, even though Allister Coetzee is the obvious choice. Instead they wait until April, only a couple weeks before the first test.
  
  The ministry of sport and SARU make it clear that he must achieve a 50% black player representation by 2019 and because the Boks had not been doing well in that regard the sports minister bans them (along with other federations) from bidding for international tournaments.
  
  So with this clear and obvious target (although still unwritten) he goes about selecting his backroom staff. He chooses Matthew Proudfoot as his forwards coach (he was in the same position with Coetzee at the Stormers) but then goes and chooses Mzwandile Stick as his backline coach. Now Stick was a good Sevens player but was yet untested at the top levels. He had served a stint as EP Kings U19 head coach in 2015 (and won the U19 Currie Cup) and was in his 3rd month of top flight coaching as the EP Kings Super Rugby sides backline coach. I think we can all agree that that team wasn't a model of success.
  
  Not to mention the fact that there is absolutely zero hand over between him and Meyer. One day Meyer is out with his staff and the next day Coetzee is in with all his staff. No one knows how anything had been done in the past. There is also a massive list of players injured, out of form, retired or left for overseas.
  
  That is where we are now.
• foxtrot

  7:37 PM 20/09/2016

  However as 2013 came around the calls for a more expansive gameplay and the selection of players such as Le Roux and Goosen became greater and more deafening.
  
  To his credit he relented and the selection of those two players (to the detriment of Kirchner & Morne Steyn) brought a wave of fresh air into Bok rugby. We saw pretty immediate results and we brought a really nice brand of rugby to the for. Meyer was actually coming out of his shell (of conservatism) and we were doing well. However, when it came to the All Blacks we were still unable to crack them at that game (although we came very close under some dubious refereeing) but the SA supporters still heaped huge amount of pressure on him because of it and it obviously got to him. He began retreating back into his shell.
  
  It still worked against most of our rivals but the ABs kept beating us and he kept retreating, to the point he was bring back the likes of Bakkies, Matfield, du Preez and Smith. And of course at the same time he wasn't allowing young talent to be properly mentored. (As an example Lambie was at the time the youngest Bok to reach 50 caps but most of them were as a substitute and only for about 5 mins a game).
  
  Then comes the WC and all the associated politics (which had of course been brewing for some time) Meyer and the rest of the team get pilloried in the press, by the public, government and even trade unions. A court case is even put together to try prevent them from leaving. Its an absolutely toxic environment. Meyer is forced to pick a certain number of black players for his squad which leads to one noticeably selection. That of the uncapped Rudy Paige.
  
  Of course we all know what happens next. We lose to Japan, and sin of sins, Meyer didn't put Siya Kolisi on to the field until right near the end of the game. This is yet again bandied about SA as an example of Meyer's 'intense racisim'.
• foxtrot

  7:25 PM 20/09/2016

  There are a number of reasons why the Boks are performing as they are. Chief among those reasons are the good old South African combination of short-terminism and politics (particularly of the racial variety).
  
  Its been the common theme in SA rugby since the game turned pro but the latest slump really has it's roots in 2007. What happened then? We won the World Cup under Jake White and so he was summarily fired for incredibly spurious reasons (aka politics) much the same as Nick Mallet was fired at the height of the Boks power in the late 90's.
  
  Good old Peter de Villiers gets appointed (very much a political choice when much better candidates had put their name forward). He does well with a WC winning team that is still relatively intact and young but he did little to nothing to try and ensure younger players were brought through the ranks. We also had the whole John Smit & Bismark issue and eventually we bowed out of the 2011 WC (although I'm sure everyone would agree it was a rather dubious exit).
  
  After 2011 the backbone of the team over the last 8 years retired or went overseas: Smit, Matfield, Bakkies, Juan Smith, du Preez, Fourie, Brussow, Steyn, Pienaar etc.
  
  Heyneke Meyer gets appointed as coach (4 years late) and is left with the job of laying a new ground work (something he was rather good at). But as always he is only given a 4 year contract and a mandate to win a WC. So he is only thinking short term.
  
  2012 was a decent year for a coach starting somewhat from the beginning. He did well bringing back Frans Steyn and had seemed to have found himself some good forwards to build as a base although it was very much based around his Bulls template and not the 'new' rugby that was being played by the likes of the ABs.
  
  He also made a fundamental mistake by opening the gates to the selection of players plying their trade overseas.
• drg

  2:55 PM 20/09/2016

  Chill out.... It's not as if the AB's can get involved in SA politics so that the SARFU then sorts out who is the best players to play so that the AB's can beat the best team...
  
  It's a domestic issue and it's up to you guys to sort it.... The world can make their opinions known, but they can't exactly get involved in government politics....
  
  I personally believe what you're saying to be the best option, invest in grass roots level and who knows by 2025 you might have an all black bok team (wait, what?)... but to force people into a jersey because they fit the right colour profile is wrong on all accounts. It is demeaning to the players and demeaning to the team and the sport... but... your issues...
  
  On a much less political scale, every country has a coach that picks the wrong blokes... France suffered greatly with the lack of Trinh-Duc... England had some abysmal teams picked to name a couple...
  
  Regardless, bok fans will make it known, they're a seriously hostile crowd to their own team... if the losses keep coming, blood will boil and people will walk away....
• drg

  8:21 AM 20/09/2016

  True, but have England recovered from 2003 yet?
  
  How long did it take for them to re find their feet? SA has struggled for a few years now, they've grown in some ways and fallen in others... Also consider Montgomery, is Bismarck du Plessis still around? There are more names than i mentioned.... I'm just not v good at remembering them...
  
  Also iirc, Dallaglio stayed on after 2003 for a season (or 2) as did Kay? Thompson, Leonard also... They hit their slump almost after Johnson quit... That was a long time ago now... No wonder I can't remember it all that well...
• stroudos

  6:45 AM 20/09/2016

  Not sure the comparison works. SA haven't been THAT awesome for some time, it hasn't been a sudden slump like it was for England post-2003.
  
  The wave of retirements for England had a massive impact - Monsieur Wilkinson being missing was the least of their worries; also consider Messieurs Johnson, Hill, Dallaglio, Back, Moody, Kay, Leonard, Thompson, Greenwood and I'm sure I'm missing some important names - that is some exodus of key players. Botha, Matfield and De Villiers have left huge gaps but not really on the same order of magnitude.
• drg

  11:14 PM 19/09/2016

  Thanks for the info all!
  
  Seems almost like a cloudy bunch of heads then. Re my comment about post 2003 England, there weren't as many of the 'outstanding' players... and of course, Monsieur Wilkinson was missing, but generally they weren't a bad team on paper, in fact they were a good team. Seems the same as the boks then.
  
  Perhaps they relied too heavily on their stalwarts (not that I blame 'them'). Matfield, Bakkies, De Villiers, etc. I'm sure it won't be too long before the boks get back to the meat laden dangers they should be!
• oldflyhalf

  9:09 PM 19/09/2016

  ...Handre Pollard -injury- the best flyhalf in SA., in my opinion.
• oldflyhalf

  9:03 PM 19/09/2016

  If you have to review your matches 2, 3 and 4 of the All Blacks you will notice that they have it, already, self imposed some sort of disability. :)
  All first half were finished very close to scoring. Some players of the ABs, about 3-4 per game, played very poorly the whole match, or just in the first half, as in the second half, or the next game, to be irresistible. for example: Dan Coles, Aaron Smith, Savea etc.
  Personally, I do not believe in coincidences. :)
  
  In November we will have the first clue, after the match between England and Australia, if Lions will be able to face honorably in the spring tour 2017 against the All Blacks.
  Until then let`s enjoy to the rugby offered by this magnificent All Blacks. :)
• foxtrot

  5:49 PM 19/09/2016

  Coetzee dropped Le Roux and Pietersen, they weren't unavailable.
• dancarter

  4:58 PM 19/09/2016

  Cambrincks and De Jager are injured, Le Roux and JP Pietersen are unavailable. Lambie is slowly being eased back into rugby with the Sharks provincial side after he was knocked out by CJ Stander.
  
  A fair few absences, but du Toit came in for De Jager and was excellent, and I am not certain Lambie would start ahead of Jantjies if he was fully fit. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine JP Pietersen and Le Roux not starting if they were available. I don't think their poor performances can entirely be explained by the players they were missing.
• dancarter

  4:40 PM 19/09/2016

  It was Whiteley. The commentators mentioned his number change but didn't say why iirc.
• drg

  12:41 PM 19/09/2016

  Boks are getting a real smashing at the moment!
  
  Hows things going in their camp? Do they have an injury crisis?
  
  They have some talented guys, but it seems that they're going through that England post 2003 thing, where they've basically had the same team for so long, now that lot are retiring they don't know what to do with themselves...
• drg

  11:11 AM 19/09/2016

  ...it's too late already, Gatland is already the coach....
• stroudos

  10:44 AM 19/09/2016

  Is it time to consider introducing a handicap system for the All Blacks? I mean, I know this South Africa team is not the best they've had for a while but putting this many points on SA is just ridiculous.
  
  Clearly, giving the other team a headstart doesn't seem to make any bloody difference, so the authorities will need to be a bit creative.
  
  Here are a few suggestions to get the ball rolling:
  1. Their strength in depth is really insane. Limit them to two replacements, at least one of which, of course, has to be a prop.
  2. Ban their hooker from throwing perfectly-weighted 10m passes or maybe at least say he has to hold the ball in both hands for two seconds before passing.
  3. No offloads from front row forwards.
  4. Only one bloke with the surname Savea or Smith allowed on the pitch at any time. Or Franks for that matter.
  5. Haka to be replaced by a charade, nominated by the opposition.
  6. Make them play in fancy dress, incorporating Cuban heeled shoes. I'm thinking Elvis Presley costumes but open to other ideas.
  
  Seriously, drastic action is required here, or the Lions tour next year is going to be a complete joke!
• jimmy23

  8:15 AM 19/09/2016

  If memory serves me correctly, I believe it was Warren Whiteley. Although I'm almost certain he started the game as well so I'm not sure why he had a 26 jersey on?
• stroudos

  7:38 AM 19/09/2016

  Different game mate.
  But I don't know who is #26...
• joeythelemur

  2:28 AM 19/09/2016

  Interesting to see jersey "26" in your feature photo. I presume that Etzebeth post-jersey rip?