Wed 5 Dec 2012 | 04:18

CJ Stander scores 80m try vs Glasgow on home debut for Munster

53 Comments

• browner

  9:28 PM 07/01/2013

  At the risk of re-igniting the debate ........ Didn't NZ start the whole 'play for one country [usually an island] & then switch to the AB's' .... every other country has played catch up !!
  
  Consider what the rugby world will look like in 30 years time with another two generations of 'Financial Migration around the world'
  
  Look at the Islander influence on NZ rugby .... compare the 1967 squad that toured england
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9YWERR196M
• kaibishin

  5:43 PM 11/12/2012

  Dirty man..
• patrick

  9:34 PM 09/12/2012

  Are you seriously begrudging players the right to celebrate how they want to with their team-mates?? Absolutely ridiculous statement, it has nothing to do with football at all
• themull

  2:58 AM 09/12/2012

  As an irishmman, cant say I agree with this intentional recruitment of foreign players with the aim of bringing them into the national squad...I don't mind if a player has genuinely moved to the country and is now calling it home, or at least a second home but this isnt the case here at all...
  
  Only way to stop this is to increase the required years of residence from 3 to something like 5/6/7.... After that kind of time then a player has done enough to prove that he is really living there or calling it home..It would also cut down on this recruitment because a young guy would not have the patience to come over at a young age and have to wait half a decade before having the chance of playing for the country...A player would really have had to have been living in the country as a kid/teenager for it to work out...And if that is the case then I don't have a problem with outside players getting the chance...
• cambridgeshirekid

  10:07 PM 07/12/2012

  Hartley has an english mum and has lived here since he was 16. I also assume that this also means that you think that Pocock shouldn't play for Oz, as he also moved there when he was 14... thought not.
• bokskick

  10:02 PM 07/12/2012

  Munster1923,
  I myself am an immigrant and have settled into a new country that I live in and have grown to love. I work here and my kids will be more from here than anywhere else. That being the case, I would not for one second want to deprive somebody the right to represent an adopted country - that just wouldn't be right. If all of that happens organically great, I don't take any issue. Richardt Strauss can pull on the blue and yellow of Ukraine for all I care.
  
  For me it starts to get murky when international caps start to be dangled at players signing with foreign clubs. This prospect sweetens the pot and perhaps is the clincher for good talent. I agree its not as if these players are being taken at gunpoint but I feel that the spirit of the game is being hurt. A system similar to what goes on in US college sports may be appropriate; certain things are just flat out not allowed to be discussed or to be part of any contract even verbally.
  
  At a minimum an "import" should:
  - have lived in an adopted country for 4/5 years. This time period works because it minimizes dangling the chance to play at a world cup in front of young players.
  - hold a passport of the new country. My understanding is that a three-year resident of an adopted country can represent that country even without being a citizen or holding a passport. Laughable.
  - not have represented any other country at anything past U18.
  
  Cheers!
• katman

  7:54 PM 07/12/2012

  Ha ha, yes we have a few. But we'll trade some for a good tighthead prop, a scrumhalf and an outside centre.
• pretzel

  6:11 PM 07/12/2012

  I don't like the idea of "outsiders" taking up positions in a national team, however I think there are certain exceptions and what you describe (the emotional tie) is an exception.
  
  I would prefer it if the buck stopped with the Grandparents... If you have a Grandad from NZ, a dad from Aus, a Grandma from SA, a mum from Canada, another Grandad from somewhere in Europe, and the other Grandma from Japan, and then you're born in Mongolia, then lucky you, you get a big list to choose from, however if you're a "Paddy" through and through, then sadly it's tough luck. But I could accept some sort of 5 year residency where a player has honestly committed themselves to a country and it is not just down to being offered a large salary and not being good enough to play for your own country of birth...
• 4:35 PM 07/12/2012

  Just a personal view here, but I don't think I'm alone, I've been living in Italy for 11yrs now. My best friends are here, 11 of my 20 rugby yrs have been played here. I had goosebumps while standing in the Olympic Stadium in Rome listening to the huge hearted Italian rugby fans sing their anthem during the ABs game, but come 6 nations time, there's only one team for me and that's Ireland.
  Now, is the difference between me and Botes/McLean/Geldynheys that I have been unable to form an emotional attachment to the country I got married in and had my kids in, or is it the contract that got offered? If I had the talent I believe would never have considered playing for anyone except Ireland, but then again, I never had to choose.
  People should play for the country they dreamed of playing for as kids, that's where the Carters and McCaws, O'Driscolls and O'Briens come from, that the extra % that players call on when the body thinks there's nothing left.
  I don't want to judge anyone or take a moral high ground, but I think the last reason people play for a country that's not their own is emotional attachment.
• 3:23 PM 07/12/2012

  I am indeed. And it's a great honour to hear our National Anthem being played whenever a try is scored! Shame it rarely ever happens.
• stroudos

  11:06 AM 07/12/2012

  Hate it. Absolutely hate it.
  
  On a similar note, I utterly despise the playing of music at trytime in internationals. I want to hear 50-60,000 people all screaming and cheering - that cacophony reverberating around a stadium is brilliant. I don't want to hear a bunch of fucking muppets going "da dada dadah, da dada dadah, da dada dadah, da dada dadah" like spoonfed morons, as if the stadium manager thinks the spectators are incapable of noticing that this is the point in the game where you cheer and get excited.
  
  Matt, I think you're Scottish? Bit different for you perhaps because the Murrayfield announcers at least have the good taste to play 500 Miles by The Proclaimers. The only one I don't mind hearing at Twickenham is Song 2 by Blur. I suppose anything would be better than that awful "da dad dadah" bullshit, but nothing is infinitely better than anything - let's hear the bloody crowd instead!
  
• stroudos

  10:52 AM 07/12/2012

  "Its a long long way to Taranaki!" Nice one!
  
• stroudos

  10:49 AM 07/12/2012

  Are South African babies born with an arm bound onto the back of a scrum?
  
  There seems to be no end of brilliant back-row players. If I were South African I wouldn't worry about flankers emigrating and playing for other countries. You guys could probably supply an entire back-row unit to ten other international sides and still keep the best three for yourselves.
  
• katman

  9:38 AM 07/12/2012

  You missed the point a previous poster made about Mtwarira. Which was that he put himself on a bus (35 hours, not 250km, to split some hairs) to get to a Sharks training camp. And this is in pretty stark contrast to being headhunted and flown up and presumably put up in luxury accommodation.
  
• 5:36 AM 07/12/2012

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe they ought to look at giving different periods of time different weight. hadn't thought of that
• 1:23 AM 07/12/2012

  You ever think that maybe Stander is doing the same thing? Moving to a country with a better standard of living? Where he might not get murdered randomly on the street or in a robbery?
• thirteen

  11:04 PM 06/12/2012

  Matt - couldn't agree with you more. i really dont like to see this football style celebration. There seem to be other parts of football culture creeping into the game too e.g. getting sent off for throwing a pretty harmless punch & fans booing the kickers etc..
• bokskick

  7:34 PM 06/12/2012

  Fair enough. I wasn't implying the SRU were going shopping in RSA just that there were players with SA roots in all team.
  
  Scotland prefers Kiwi talent and this has been aided by the grandparents rule. Off the top of my head: Glenn Metcalfe, John Leslie, Martin Leslie, Brendan Laney, and probably 5 or so others...
• 7:18 PM 06/12/2012

  I agree with you here Reality. Look at "The story of the mighty All Blacks" and you'll get an idea of why they're great.
  A National player for me should represent his people, not the first team that lets him on, that's what clubs are for!
• 7:14 PM 06/12/2012

  stickler for details there Reality ;)
• 7:11 PM 06/12/2012

  Some of these examples might be akin to saying that Ronan O Gara should be playing for the US and Jamie Heaslip for Israel. (I don't think that it's just an example)
  
  I'd agree with Bokskick that once you've represented your country at underage then you can't switch sides.
  
  I'm Irish and love to see the national team do well, but I have to say that if we start naturalizing players specifically for rugby alot of the pride and satisfaction will be gone from it.
  A National team should represent a nations ability to produce a rugby team, not acquire one. We have great players in Ireland, lets rely on them and them alone.
• 7:04 PM 06/12/2012

  Pienaar plays with Ulster, made a good life for himself and his kids and plays for South Africa.
  It's a personal choice on the players behalf.
  I'm no fan of the whole scheme myself, and I imagine I'd be annoyed if the flux of players was going the opposite direction so I can understand your anger though.
• reality

  6:27 PM 06/12/2012

  I was wondering, what are people's thoughts on what playing for the national team should mean? Everybody's talking about passports, technicalities, countries of birth etc. but at the end of the day, in an ideal world, what should it mean?
  
  My view is that to play for a country, you should have spent a significant part of your life there, or at least have some sort of strong relation to the place. I don't think the birthplace has any relevance, because what does it matter what piece of land you were born in? What matters is what comes after that point, surely?
  
  Is the idea of having allowances for foreign-born players not to give people who have a strong link to the country, but weren't born there, the opportunity to play? Isn't anything more just an abuse of the system?
  
  I think the idea of having a distant relation from the place shouldn't be enough, because I don't see how having a few genes from the place is comparable to having grown up and lived in the place for your whole life.
  
  Does having a residency rule not make playing for the 'national' team meaningless, considering that it's not national at all? They obviously won't be considered to be Irish, French, English or whatever the case may be, so why should they be allowed to play for the national team of the country in question?
  
  Would people not feel happier and prouder knowing that their players have come from the country's stock, have gone through the country's systems, and are a product of the country, rather than seeing these aliens who have happened to spend a few years in the place, or who have a very tenuous link to the place, represent their country?
  
  
  The thing is, people keep talking about legality and passports, but are they really what playing for your country is about?
• reality

  6:13 PM 06/12/2012

  I'd say that setting foot in the country should be a first step before being given a contract and asked to play for the national team.
• cluainoir

  5:48 PM 06/12/2012

  Bent has an Irish grandparent and an Irish passport, fully entitled to play for Ireland.
• pretzel

  5:28 PM 06/12/2012

  But wouldn't this turn things into a franchise? As I mentioned France is constantly accused of stealing players away with the temptations of large paychecks... Now if the French decide they'd like to offer McCaw Jnr, Carter Jnr, Matfield Jnr, Lomu Jnr, (you get my point, 1-15) a large pay check, then provided those players fulfil a 3 year stint in the country etc then France could field an entire team of "non French" players, effectively a World XV and turn the whole thing into a "who can pay more" type of thing.. (Sorry France, I only pick on you because I am aware of a number of players which have played in France due to the climate, the paycheck, the way of life etc)...
  
  I don't have a problem so much with players being bought or brought over for clubs, but I think when they then venture into the international side it's wrong. I think it is important to see home grown players and develop and hand down their skills to other home grown players and so the NATION on a whole gets better.
  
  Stick all the current All Blacks in Namibian jersey's and tell me that Namibia's rugby has improved greatly....
• katman

  4:21 PM 06/12/2012

  When you're a forward and you've outsprinted the entire backline for 80m, you're allowed a little hug, even two.
• connachtman

  4:04 PM 06/12/2012

  I think the celebration is due to Stander being new to the team, but I agree I also hate the bromance celebrations, and don't get me started on the Chris Ashton Superman dives.
• bokskick

  4:01 PM 06/12/2012

  Munster1923, you're missing my point. I never said being born in one country should stop you playing for another. What I said was that out and out recruiting for the purposes of bolstering your national team is the issue and needs to be stopped.
  
  Of this wonderful list that you have compiled not a SINGLE one of those players was lured with a package to ultimately drive them to wear an SA jersey. Not even Beast Mtawarira. Beast endured a 35 hours bus journey from Bulawayo to Durban to try out for the Sharks and after making a name for himself was called up. Do you see the difference? I fear not.
  
  As for the rest of the list, you must understand that the geopolitics of SA and the region skews things. The movement of the people between Zimbabwe/Rhodesia, Namibia, and SA is quite free and often families straddle these countries. As for all of the UK-born folks in that list they moved to he colonies for work, they were not lured to play rugby... Nick Mallett's father for example move him to Rhodesia 6 weeks after birth. Again, it's important that you see the difference.
  
  As for Christian Stewart - who I have met and talked to about this very topic - he moved to SA as a child and learned the game and did his schooling there. Incidentally he is a dual international.
  
  In a comment above you scoffed at me for suggesting that that each six nations team had at least one South African-developed player in their ranks recently. You may be right but off the top of my head:
  
  Italy:
  Tobi Botes
  
  England:
  Brad Barritt
  Mouritz Botha
  
  Scotland:
  Dave Denton and a couple guys in the sevens outfit.
  
  France:
  Brian Liebenberg
  
  Ireland:
  Richardt Strauss
  
  I'm not going to bother with a more comprehensive list...
• 3:48 PM 06/12/2012

  Apologies. It was his Dad who lived in Scotland. My mistake.
  
  We'll still take him though. Could do with a decent fly-half!
  
  Interesting family history though. He's related to the Broons fae Troon (Gordon and Peter Brown).
• foxtrot

  3:23 PM 06/12/2012

  Umm no he wasn't born in Scotland, he was born and raised in Durban. Get your facts straight.
• benny

  3:05 PM 06/12/2012

  I hear what you're saying, Beast had no chance to play pro rugby for Zim but on the flip side, guys like Strauss or Waldrom both knew that they had almost no chance of playing for their national teams either. Must be frustrating for those two in particular knowing that not only aren't they best in the country but not even in their own families. I don't blame them for wanting to play rugby at the highest level and can't blame the countries for picking them.
  
  But Stander, Rathbone, this is a problem that can be very easily solved by increasingly qualification to 5 or 6 years. A 15 year old immigrant can play at 20 or 21, a 20yo can play at 25/26. Not ideal, but seems fair.
  
  I am against what RSA was talking about doing though, making
• 3:00 PM 06/12/2012

  I'm getting a tad fed up of the over celebration of tries in rugby these days. This over the top hugging and group bonding when a try is scored just seems a tad unneccessary. I don't mind celebration but it's verging a little into football and I think it's a little bad taste. Bring back the days of when a try was scored everybody trotted back to the halfway line to get back to the job of scoring another.
  
  Anyone else noticed this? Anyone else bothered?
• 2:55 PM 06/12/2012

  Scotland will gladly take Patrick Lambie back from you seeing as he was born in Troon and moved to South Africa when he was 13(ish)!
• benny

  2:30 PM 06/12/2012

  And he was almost deported a couple of years back for overstaying! But i don't see why that should exclude him from the English team :)
• danknapp

  1:56 PM 06/12/2012

  Godlike rugby geekery. You win.
• foxtrot

  11:58 AM 06/12/2012

  Ok now tell me this, which of these players were raised and schooled in rugby in their country of birth or in SA? Also the majority of your list is of players that played in the amateur era and/or came from our neighboring countries which never had strong rugby playing cultures and at the same time had very close ties in South Africa.
  
  Name one player that was specifically lured to SA in order to play professional international rugby for the Springboks?
  
• connachtman

  11:31 AM 06/12/2012

  Don't forget the new "Irish" prop Michael Bent who was parachuted STRAIGHT into the irish team having never played any club or provincial game in ireland! Its a long long way to Taranaki!
  
  http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/sport/rugby/irelands-wrong-call-on-kiwi-prop-3298420.html
  
  
• guy

  9:40 AM 06/12/2012

  Dude, I +1-ed all your comments. The first one was good, the second even better. But this one is really, really impressive, as BarryT mentioned. Top notch!
• katman

  7:46 AM 06/12/2012

  While you might have a point when you say that all countries, including South Africa, have fielded people born, or even raised, elsewhere, you can hardly compare Stander's situation with a player moving to SA from Ghana, Zambia or Zimbabwe. Who were they going to play for if they stayed home? And against whom? What kind of international rugby career does a Zambian national have? Stander played top flight rugby at all levels bar senior national in SA before being headhunted by Munster and Ireland.
  
  I don't think it's a black or white issue. Guys like Strauss and Stander can't be compared to, for instance, Mouritz Botha who was a nobody in SA, started playing for a nobody team in England and worked his way up to Sarries and then England. I don't see anything wrong with what he did, but the latest Irish signings just don't feel right.
• isaac

  2:42 AM 06/12/2012

  Im pretty sure Tuilagi moved to England when he was 13.
• 1:56 AM 06/12/2012

  Unlike most people, I generally feel that the residency rule is not a bad thing. Three years is actually a fair amount of time. I know here in Canada it would be enough to apply for citizenship, so why not let them play? Home is where you lay your head. But home is also where the heart is, and it doesn't sound like Stander's heart is in Ireland. So in this case I might say I'm not all for it. Beast, for example, or Castrogiovanni, have adopted their countries just like their countries adopted them, so let's not forget that.
  
  There are a lot of countries where expats are what drives the Sport. There, letting foreign born-players into the national squad increases the quality of the Rugby, and might give the team more publicity and promote naturals picking up the oval ball. I agree that there are stories that everyone likes to latch on to, but on the whole I don't think the residency rule is as much of a farce as everyone makes it out to be.
• barryt

  1:20 AM 06/12/2012

  Players evidently have their right to choose, if they're getting nowhere with their rugby in a country and decided to persue a different life in another country then so be it! This stander lad will have serious competition for the backrow slot in ireland but surely he must be aware of this! I'd like to think players have enough pride in their club and country to stick it out but if they're unfairly being benched etc, can you blame them for moving? I don't like it but who are we to judge
• barryt

  1:18 AM 06/12/2012

  Very Impressive work! that's how you back up a point!
• pretzel

  12:03 AM 06/12/2012

  I really dislike the idea of players moving abroad and then hey presto playing for that team.
  
  I mean, I don't know whether he has a Grandma that was half Irish or w/e, but in some respects England has done it with Tuilagi. I get the reasons, he is a product of English school rugby etc, but he has no ties to England, perhaps one could make an exception as Tuilagi did grow up in England (I'm lead to believe).
  
  However I find it a tad cynical to import a player with the view to him representing your country. I mean I don't understand how this will improve Irish rugby? If for instance a herd of up and coming Dan Carters, and McCaws, and the like decide they'd rather swap the emerald isles for NZ and don the green Irish shirt and they waltz straight into the Irish team, would this actually improve IRISH rugby? All we'd have is Irish Kiwi's. It wouldn't help the home grown guys, it wouldn't improve IRISH rugby, it would improve the rankings of that team playing FOR Ireland...
  
  French clubs have a reputation for being big spenders, so why don't the French just start offering silly money to get any player they want to come and play for the international team...
  
  Seems a shame thats all...
• katman

  11:12 PM 05/12/2012

  The reason he left is because, apart from the regulars in the Bok back row (Alberts, Vermeulen, Louw, Spies, Brussouw, Burger, Kankowski and maybe still Smith), guys like Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi and apparently Arno Botha were all ahead of him in the pecking order. And it must me tough to look at those odds and still back your chances of making the Bok squad in the next year or two. I don't agree with the mercenary nature of the modern international game at all, but on an individual level you can see why he made the move.
• bokskick

  10:44 PM 05/12/2012

  I don't know if that alone is the answer. Many South Africans have a second passport (mainly British) so that would only slow the flow a bit. Beyond that if a passport is all that is required to switch allegiances there are a number of economic immigrant investor schemes that allow you to get a passport for a large lump sum in under a year. Assuming the poaching unions are paying, this could actually make the problem worse. I say if you've played U19 or above for a country you should be ineligible to play for another.
• smashhulk

  10:28 PM 05/12/2012

  These questions of eligibility might get more complicated if Sevens gets in the olympics, since the rules there are different.
  
  Could be made simpler by doing it on a passport basis. So someone would really have to switch nationality.
• bokskick

  10:20 PM 05/12/2012

  As for CJ Stander, I hope he seriously considers returning to SA to try and fight for a spot in green and gold rather than trying to be the next Dion O'Cuinneagain...
• reality

  10:18 PM 05/12/2012

  Actually, I just realised that the video description said he was the next Strauss, so, forget I mentioned that part.
• reality

  10:16 PM 05/12/2012

  Wow, he looks fantastic. Great pace and a pretty good step as well.
  
  He seems to be another Richardt Strauss in the making though. What's the point in supporting your country if half the players are just foreign imports? Ireland look set to be the next England.
• bokskick

  10:16 PM 05/12/2012

  I hate seeing players so willingly be part of these naturalization schemes... It's one thing if a player decides to immigrate somewhere to pursue an international cap, but for clubs and national unions to be actively recruiting is ridiculous. It's sad to see so many SA players pulling on foreign jerseys. There must be at least one in each of the six nations teams by now.
  
  It's also sends a bad message to the youth players of the countries doing the poaching. "Well done young English chap, you didn't drink or smoke like so many of your peers, you practiced hard and hit the gym religiously, you did everything right to become a professional with a view to playing for your country one day. Now go sit over there and keep the bench warm in case the Fijian/Samoan/South African/Kiwi who is starting in your position needs to come off before the 80 is up."
• katman

  9:44 PM 05/12/2012

  Of all the South African players who have headed north and expressed the desire to play for another country, CJ Stander is definitely the biggest loss. He and fellow Bulls back row Arno Botha were outstanding for the Junior Boks and in the Super15. I know he has some serious competition in the Irish back row, but he's young and will only qualify in three years' time, and I have no doubt he'll be a real contender when the time comes. A real pity from an SA point of view.