Mon 29 Feb 2016 | 09:54

England stay on course with win over Ireland at Twickenham

30 Comments

• colombes

  10:40 AM 02/03/2016

  Any rugby old fart would prefer to debate in front of a veggie cassoulet.
• drg

  10:08 AM 02/03/2016

  Oh don't be such a vegan couscous eater Dan!!!
• drg

  5:23 PM 01/03/2016

  Probably because Pocock isn't a grade a bellpiece....
• drg

  5:21 PM 01/03/2016

  Yoann Maestri at worst would have got a yellow card for that hit. Nothing more, the fact he was not banned afterwards is only a good thing.
• katman

  12:53 PM 01/03/2016

  Poite is a twoite.
• oliver

  10:57 AM 01/03/2016

  Dear im: Teams may bring offences to the attention of the citing commissioner.
  
  As for the rest, I get it: the French are mindless thugs, we also eat babies and smell of garlic. Ok. Yawn.
• jimmy23

  10:25 AM 01/03/2016

  He has 46 caps and as far as I know he hasn't been yellow or red carded once, I don't think it's even happened with Quins. I agree that he is a bit of a dick but if he was an idiot as well then surely his aggressiveness would have gotten him into more trouble than it has?
  
  I'm not saying that I don't think he should be punished (although he has escaped citation) because it was reckless from him, but I do not think for one second that he intentionally stamped on Murray's head. You'd have to be a special kind of screwed in the head to want to do that to another person.
• oliver

  8:54 AM 01/03/2016

  Regarding Mike Brown, I'll just say I'm very surprised he hasn't been cited by the Irish.
  
  Also, I've said it before, England has a real discipline problem. It seems like they get one or more yellow card at every game and that could really cost them in the future.
  
  The Wales-England revenge-from-the-WC-game is going to be one to watch!
• 10stonenumber10

  2:16 AM 01/03/2016

  Growing up Souf of the River, I'm afraid there is only so much credit I can give them boys from the Norf.... but yeah, Sarries have done a brilliant job bringing all 3 through...
  
  
  On a side but somewhat related note, I really hope that being dropped p*ssed Courtney Lawes off. Half-backs globally used to fear him, but he has been off the boil and hasn't committed legal ABH for a while now. The only thing he has killed is the ball. If he comes back into the team with a temper, lives will be genuinely at risk.
  
  Of course though, it is only game 2. England are still in the transition era, things are looking good but we won't know for sure until the end of the tournament.
• reality

  11:25 PM 29/02/2016

  @Stroudos, I don't really buy points 2 and 3. In fairness, for point 1, in the video Care doesn't seem to be involved - I was actually referring to the Haskell thing as being visibile. I think I remember it being a justified yellow though, although I may be wrong, so I take your point.
  
  Point 2, Haskell is initally right to contest the ball, but he's then cleared and is clearly no longer supporting his body weight but continues to play the ball. At the moment that Murray was dragged in, he's clearly not supporting his own weight - leaning on another player and on your elbow doesn't count as being on your feet.
  
  3. Murray initially holds the ball steady at the base of the ruck which isn't illegal (or if it is, it's literally never penalised), and when Brown competes, yes, he then holds on illegally. However, once he gets kicked in the face, I think he can be forgiven for holding on, and the pre-kick-in-the-face holding is about 1-2 seconds, so I think atrociously illegal is a bit of an exaggeration. The fact that it arrives after an English foul though - at least in the eyes of the referee - means that it's essentially a non-existent foul, so I don't think he can be blamed in the slightest.
• 45678

  10:40 PM 29/02/2016

  Interesting but pointless reflection - if Murray could legitimately hold the ball on the ground for 2-3 seconds, then the Hartley no- try should have been awarded? It was momentum that took him over not double movement
  
  Either way, brown still acted like a dick and is very lucky to have escaped a citing
• stroudos

  10:23 PM 29/02/2016

  @Reality, I was about to come on here simply to reiterate that I think Brown was out of order and I'd be more than happy to see a citing and subsequent ban for what I consider reckless and unnecessarily dangerous activity.
  
  But I've just watched your video a few times and three thing a stand out:
  1. I can't actually see Danny Care doing anything wrong here. Watching live I thought it was a fair cop, but the moment you cite (55"), he is clearly making every possible attempt to roll away.
  2. Haskell, who at the time I thought it looked like he was (inadvertently) trapping Care in the ruck, after making an initial attempt to grab the ball was well cleared out and played no further part.
  3. Conor Murray really did hold onto the ball for an atrociously illegal amount of time! Fair play to him he still had a vice-like grip on it even after being kicked in the face at least two times.
  
  To reiterate, I am NOT saying this excuses the reckless swinging boot from Brown, but seeing as the officials decided he was OK, the next penalty in the hierarchy should clearly have been against Green 9.
• stroudos

  10:00 PM 29/02/2016

  In response to point 1, and point 2, and point 3... in fact to all 4 points, I think he actually is that stupid.
  Brilliant rugby player, but it appears to me he is a moron.
• stroudos

  9:58 PM 29/02/2016

  +1 to all of that, especially last paragraph.
  Itoje so far has been managed in exemplary fashion. Slightly ironic in as much as he's always looked ready and seems to be taking everything perfectly in his stride.
  
  Looking forward to seeing if Billy V can wreak as much havoc in a couple of weeks with his cousin his opposite number. On current form I reckon he can!
• stroudos

  9:44 PM 29/02/2016

  Halcyon days, Larry. ;)
• reality

  9:10 PM 29/02/2016

  Am I the only one who remembers the genesis of the incident being James Haskell, off his feet, playing the ball on the ground and causing Murray to fall into the ruck in which he then held on? And that's not mentioning Care also obstructing everything, so to call Murray the cheat seems a bit one-eyed to me. You can see it at 55 seconds in here:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgGvvogUaLA
  
  In any case, saying that a player holding on on the ground is mitigation for raking his face with your boot isn't really ok. It was extremely reckless and I was actually shocked when not alone was he not red-carded, but he wasn't even penalised for reckless use of the boot.
• eddie-g

  8:26 PM 29/02/2016

  You normally try to be fair to referees? What's the fun in that?!?
  
  I half-jest... I do think it's important to be fair to refs on individual decisions, to try and see the incident from their perspective, but passing judgment on their overall body of work is well within the bounds of acceptable criticism.
  
  Ever since the Bismarck-Carter incident, I've had my doubts about Poite... and he's not done much since to change my mind.
• 10stonenumber10

  6:34 PM 29/02/2016

  Brown's play was reckless, and unsportsmanlike.
  
  It wasn't just the one kick either, Murray took two or more, cheating or not, Brown knew he made contact and carried on. It is like walking over a downed front row. Legal, but everybody thinks you are a knob and someone gets hurt.
  
  I agree with the new England mentality of unleashing the inner bar steward, but what England needed was for all 23 to play like Brown and Hartley used to, not for Brown to still be the standout nut job. Every push and shove, every "moderately tepid" moment, he was in there.
  
  Hartley on the other hand... I was very impressed with. I have seen him say "calm down boys" more in the past 2 games than the past 10 years.
  
  Itoje has to be discovery of the decade, he seemed to spur the Vunipolas on to be the monsters that they are, it seemed Maro and Billy were one-upping each other until Mako took the field, then all 3 caused hell. Giving Itoje the full 80 will do wonders for the guy's already solid confidence. Jones was quoted telling the Vunipolas "You're Tongan, start playing like Tongans.", this is one of the most destructive games to date.
• stroudos

  5:14 PM 29/02/2016

  DrG, Thanks for the video, hadn't had a chance to see it again since the live broadcast.
  
  I would describe Brown's actions on that video like this:
  0:00 to 0:05 - the way you'd create a divot in the turf when you've forgotten to bring the bloody kicking tee.
  0:07 to end - the way you'd kick a shed door to force it open where the wood's become warped in wet weather.
  
  Neither in my opinion is an appropriate action for disrupting the ball from a ruck.
  
  Mr m made the point below that he's probably frustrated by Conor Murray being a cheating git and illegally holding on to the ball - and getting away with it, but - like your (DrG) old favourite of being held back at a ruck - unfortunately he can't mete out his own summary justice in the form of a stud to the face.
  
  By the way, an orthodox clear-out would surely have been more effective here. There's only one Ireland playing contesting when Brown arrives. Could he not have either smashed him with a low body position or saddle-rolled him off? That would have left Murray exposed, to the extent that even Monsieur Poite could clearly see his failure to release the ball. Or - even more controversial - allowed a team mate to come in and steal it. Maybe I'm being naive.
• larry

  5:02 PM 29/02/2016

  An edit on one of my sentences. Of course all this was never allowed in the past, like before the mid-90's I'd say. I distinctly remember Ireland v France in '95, and I believe it was Olivier Merle being penalized for rolling over with ball in hand on the ground. You never see that whistled anymore!
• larry

  4:59 PM 29/02/2016

  I meant to type "now," not no in the first sentence of my comment.
• larry

  4:58 PM 29/02/2016

  It's allowed no, unfortunately. "Immediately" doesn't mean that anymore, in having to release or pass the ball. A tackled player has a few seconds. Think of when it was not allowed for a scrum half or acting half to "dig" a ball out with hands. Then, even before the law was changed, referees stopped calling that as "hands" in the ruck or set scrum, sometime in the early 90's. When, I believe it was Slattery or Australia, in for Farr Jones, was penalized for doing so during the '91 RWC, the announcer said that in Australia a scrum half could dig the ball out and not get penalized. Eventually it was changed in law.
• larry

  4:52 PM 29/02/2016

  Okay, ask yourself if law 15.5b is really applied. That's the law that says a tackled player must "immediately" release or pass the ball if tackled to the ground. Players can, depending on the referee, take up to at least two or three seconds to do so, and in the meantime, if that player was tackled the 'wrong way' as in facing the opposition, he has a few seconds to roll or crawl around on the ground to turn the 'right way' facing his side of the pitch. He or she can even keep a hand on the ball after placing it back. Of course all this never was allowed. Immediately has indeed come to mean at the least a one thousand one, perhaps even another one thousand. If a referee blows right away his whistle for a player hanging on, he's going to hear about it, whether from his referee society, or from a team's captain, and on the touchlines, a coach at the half or full time.
  Now, regarding Brown, he put in the boot, it looks like. That's been out, to use a boot on a player, for years. But if the Irish player had to, and I mean had to, immediately release, that boot would have been used to heel the ball back, because the ball would have been on the ground, not held in hand! But read the laws: hands in the ruck are allowed in some circumstances now in rucks. If a player binds on behind the rear player, he can sweep the ball back with hand in this modern game. Not before! That ball would have had to be heeled back. Same with scrum half or acting scrum half: they could not "dig" a ball out in prior times in this game. Blame the law changes, and what's allowed as "politically correct."
• jimmy23

  4:02 PM 29/02/2016

  That was a bit more encouraging from England, but really we should have been much further ahead by half-time considering the amount of possession and territory we had. Safe to say that the last 10 minutes were unbelievably tense and the way they held their nerve is commendable.
  
  As for the Brown incident. It was pretty reckless, though perhaps he wouldn't have gone overboard if Murray had actually released the ball when he was supposed to. I think to say he wanted to cause harm is a bit ridiculous when you consider;
  
  1. All the officials watching
  2. Multiple cameras filming his every move
  3. That getting a red card at such a crucial point in the match would be suicide for the team
  4. Any kind of intentional foul play these is severely punished, especially when it involves boots and faces.
  
  He might be a bit overly feisty or mouthy at times, but I don't think he's a dirty player or an idiot. He's no Bakkies Botha.
• stroudos

  3:50 PM 29/02/2016

  @im
  Couple of good points well mate there. You've convinced me on the Hartley non-try, (not that I felt that strongly about it); quite a few options for awarding a penalty, double-movement is probably not one of them but the outcome is the same.
  
  Brown is more complex. You're right of course that he was dealing with a cheat. Similar to smashing someone in the face who is trying to hold you in a ruck I suppose; it's infuriating to deal with someone not releasing and not being pinged for it - maybe Brown's moves were designed simply to draw Poite's attention to the non-release by Murray. Personally I think he was just being a reckless thug.
• danknapp

  3:40 PM 29/02/2016

  I am normally quite balanced in my view of the referee, but I thought on this occasion Poite had an absolute shocker.
• drg

  3:31 PM 29/02/2016

  Given the way the law views at players jumping for high balls, I'd say that consideration of their own safety is not considered AT ALL!
  
  I personally think when you look at the other incidents that have received bans recently - even Ashton face grab/gouge incident, there is a strong precedent set for just general recklessness... or even clumsiness..
• drg

  2:00 PM 29/02/2016

  Definitely a dickish thing to do - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96w_lT_Dl4s
  
  I'm surprised we've heard nothing so far, certainly seen far more innocent incidents that have resulted in something reckless, end up in front of the disciplinary panel.
• stroudos

  1:22 PM 29/02/2016

  Agree with all of that.
  
  The Sean Veldtmann Show (TMO not sure if that's how you spell it) was incredibly tiresome. And I think many of his calls were inaccurate as well as being annoying.
  
  Haskell tackle HAD to be reviewed at real speed. He was maybe late by 1/100 of a second in real time. Also he was only fractionally high and that was because Murray was at a 60 degree angle at impact. Overall Haskell had a fantastic game so I hope he doesn't suffer as a result of "indiscipline".
  
  Splitting hairs now, I would have given England a 5m scrum after Hartley's alleged "double movement"; it wasn't, he was shunted along by momentum of people joining the ruck. And I would have awarded that try to Ireland, but Poite was equally responsible here for asking a dopey question. (By the way, that protocol is total BS, isn't it!). I think Care was very unlucky to be carded, think he just got pinned in, partly by Haskell partly by Ireland players. Brown should have had a straight red for reckless use of the boot. In my opinion.
  
  Browny is really starting to piss me off. Belongs on a football pitch. Constantly moaning at the ref, trying to get involved in petty handbags at every opportunity and actually quite a dirty bar steward, as evidenced by the swinging boot - England fan or not, I want to see that cited and hope he gets a ban; shouldn't be swinging a boot around in the middle of a ruck like that, it is almost inevitable that someone will get a stud in the face and there's just no need for it. I'm sure he's not along in doing it, but even that footballery chest-pumping logo-slapping celebration in the still above irritates me. More importantly, he NEVER passes any more. He's become predictable in attack. Makes some cracking breaks as he always has, but oppo defenders now know they don't even need to worry about the guys outside him.
  
  I would like to see Watson take over at full back. Rokodaguni my preference to replace him on the wing
• 45678

  11:15 AM 29/02/2016

  Ireland consistently employed the old tactic of the tackler remaining or rolling beyond the tackle on the floor, meaning the English players had to work round the breakdown. this yielded a number of penalties for Ireland, as they got people over the ball quicker. Poite didn't look at the tackler rolling away throughout the whole game until he wanted to card Danny care at the end.
  
  Thought the card on Haskell was harsh given that it was only viewed in slow motion, but Brown is a bit of a dick and deserves to be cited
  
  England are winning without playing well, but the standard has been pretty poor across the board in the 6N