Tue 8 Apr 2014 | 11:03

Heineken Cup 2014 Quarter Final Highlights

26 Comments

• themull

  10:26 AM 11/04/2014

  I don't think anybody is questioning the referee's integrity here..We, who disagree with the decision, are merely stating hat he made a very big mistake..None of us said it was intentional, which would be an attack on his integrity..All referees make mistakes, but that doesn't mean you can expect people to be quiet when big mistakes are made...Sweeping mistakes by referees under the rug would be the absolute worst thing to do for the sport..They should be held accountable for bad decisions, or at least for continuous bad decisions, as they have been this year in Super Rugby..
• saracen

  6:43 PM 10/04/2014

  Never ceases to amuse me about the number of so called rugby supporters who think the referee's always get it wrong. If you think you could do it, try it! It may drive fans like Andinov away from the game, but perhaps that's a bonus? In the meantime, I think it's very unwise to question the integrity of officials, go down that road and it will surely drive referee's away from the game! No officials, no game.
• larry

  3:42 PM 10/04/2014

  Well, if this was the same ref as that Ireland/NZ match last November, he missed at least one forward pass in that final rush to win the game. He calls it, Ireland win. He doesn't, and NZ win.
• fatprop

  11:51 AM 10/04/2014

  Payne was reckless and stupid. That's it really, it is deem as a tackle in the rule book, and he has played a man in the air and put him beyond the horizontal. This is just what is in the rule book not my view. It is a red and as others say it is very easy to pretend that you didn't know the guy was going to be there. If it was an accident Payne might have shown more remorse than to put his hands up saying there is nothing wrong what's the problem. Payne has looked at the ball then down to adjust his run around players, how did he not see Goode running to the ball ? It's an up and under so why did he think that no-one would challenge him ?
• andinov

  2:03 AM 10/04/2014

  Intention has to be taken into account. It is in every other red card decision (boot to head, tackling beyond the horizontal, head butting etc). I would have yellowed the player.
  
  You can argue that Payne was cynical, deliberate and intended to injure the player but you could equally say that Goode was cynical making the most of the injury to get the player sent off (both untrue of course).
  
  Is there also anything to be said for the timing of the incident. The referee as well as everybody in the stadium must have thought 'well that's game over'. To often in rugby a game is being decided by the referee and not the better team. This is driving fans away from the game
  
  As someone else pointed out neither of these recieved a card!
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q0nl4gnUn4
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYHrZIcvqz8
• kanpai

  2:14 PM 09/04/2014

  Yeah, i shouldn't have bring Owens in the debate, because it's much more about personal feelings that pure facts (there is still this 2008 final in a corner of my head) . And when there is a game with no team I support, i enjoy his way of refereeing. Quite a paradox.
  
  As I've said, Munster deserve to win, no doubt about it. Whatever i think of Owens, it still would have been the same result.
  
  About the video ref, i've read that there won't be any citation, which seems really strange to me, as there is videos clearly showing fritz being stamped...
  
  Anyone know if there is law about what the irish television must show during a video-ref ?
  
  
  
• drg

  11:39 AM 09/04/2014

  Eddie, I totally understand your comment, what I am saying is that Warburton went into that situation attempting to tackle the French player, Payne on the other hand was attempting to catch a high ball... I understand that you are not trying to compare them on the actions alone but on their categories - reckless - but I for one will agree that Warburtons tackle was most likely reckless (and not deliberate) but there is no way I can class Goode's effort as reckless...
  
  Look at the actual scenario, you are punishing someone for their commitment to catching a ball.. This is not a case of a reckless early tackle or someone jumping at the last second to catch the ball so you end up tackling them in the air, which could be deemed reckless.
  
  Like I said if you want to start punishing people for legal play and take the competitiveness out of the game then that is all on you. I look forward to the next bunch of videos/penalties in the future where high crossfield kicks are now going to become key tactics to earn penalties and red cards.
  
  If you think I haven't made a case that the referee was wrong by stating that Payne ran face first into another player whilst trying to catch the ball, then I'd imagine there is little point in continuing this discussion.
• drg

  11:08 AM 09/04/2014

  @Facepalm, if I was in the referee's position I would hope that I'd get it up on the big screen have a look at it, see that it was clearly an accident and restart the game from where Goode fell.
  
  I'm not going to write two full explanations as to why, but I'll write one lower down in reply to eddie et al.
• kanpai

  10:59 AM 09/04/2014

  I have to admit that i haven't seen these games, so i was unaware of it.
  But the only games I've seen him act weirdly was with Irish teams involved,and i'm surely still a little biased myself, so maybe I've jumped to conclusions.
  I still think he has incoherent calls (mostly rucks and maul), and rucks were a mess, but he has the merit to let the game flow.
  
  And it's sad to say, but nowadays nearly every ref is a home town ref, despite their effort.
• connachtman

  10:09 AM 09/04/2014

  Ashton may be a prat but he has some serious speed, he blew by the Ulster defence....
• drg

  3:20 AM 09/04/2014

  Definitely not, Ashton knew how much of a prat the referee was and he was terrified of being shown a red card for a blatant tackle on a player in the air, (which would be totally consistent with an earlier ruling!)
• reality

  12:21 AM 09/04/2014

  I understand why the referee might give a red card for that, but then again, I personally have never, ever seen a red card given for that, so I don't see why it was given in this case. Ronan O'Gara did it on the Lions tour and all that was given was a penalty. If Goode hadn't gotten hurt then the referee wouldn't have given a red card and I think that's a foolish way to judge the seriousness of an act of foul play. It was too stupid for words from Payne but red cards are supposed to be reserved for really bad acts of foul play like eye-gouging and punching people; not for a lack of awareness when chasing a high ball that leads to a nasty collision.
  
  Then, according to the letter of the law, when the Saracens player tackled an Ulster player who had jumped in the lineout he committed the same offence as Payne and did it voluntarily but got just a penalty against him, which is a double-standard, according to the letter of the law.
  
  Ulster looked like the team to beat this year and it's sickening to think that instead of them getting the chance to be crowned Europe's best their season has ended in failure because of one stupid incident from Payne.
  
  And Eddie-g, you say that intent is irrelevant and maybe you're right in theory, but Garces said several times to the television match official that they needed to analyse the intention of Payne, so seemingly he did take intent into account.
  
  All in all, I'm just really sad to see Ulster gone and the fact that Saracens barely scraped a victory against a 14-man team in my eyes shows the gulf in class between the two. A shame.
• reality

  12:20 AM 09/04/2014

  I understand why the referee might give a red card for that, but then again, I personally have never, ever seen a red card given for that, so I don't see why it was given in this case. Ronan O'Gara did it on the Lions tour and all that was given was a penalty. If Goode hadn't gotten hurt then the referee wouldn't have given a red card and I think that's a foolish way to judge the seriousness of an act of foul play. It was too stupid for words from Payne but red cards are supposed to be reserved for really bad acts of foul play like eye-gouging and punching people; not for a lack of awareness when chasing a high ball that leads to a nasty collision.
  
  Then, according to the letter of the law, when the Saracens player tackled an Ulster player who had jumped in the lineout he committed the same offence as Payne and did it voluntarily but got just a penalty against him, which is a double-standard, according to the letter of the law.
  
  Ulster looked like the team to beat this year and it's sickening to think that instead of them getting the chance to be crowned Europe's best their season has ended in failure because of one stupid incident from Payne.
  
  And Eddie-g, you say that intent is irrelevant and maybe you're right in theory, but Garces said several times to the television match official that they needed to analyse the intention of Payne, so seemingly he did take intent into account.
  
  All in all, I'm just really sad to see Ulster gone and the fact that Saracens barely scraped a victory against a 14-man team in my eyes shows the gulf in class between the two. A shame.
• eddie-g

  11:52 PM 08/04/2014

  I think you misread my comment.
  
  If you think the red was an awful decision, which is a direct criticism of a ref's decision, you need to explain how. Saying it was unintentional, which I happen to agree with, is irrelevant in the context of the laws. If the ref believed it was reckless, it is a red card offence. Which also happens to be EXACTLY the same standard by which tip tackles are judged. To say this is nothing like Warburton's red means you've missed my point entirely.
  
  Even further back, in the 07 World Cup, Burger got an off field red for a similar incident in a game v Samoa. Burger in his case actually did jump for the ball and ended up high tackling an opponent, so he too got done for recklessness.
  
  This issue isn't new; and as I said, it was tough on Ulster. I agree there wasn't malice involved. But if you want to say the ref got this wrong, you haven't yet made a case.
  
  
• flanker2712

  11:48 PM 08/04/2014

  Not sure which statement from Stuart Barnes is evidence of his love of Irish teams. Of the highlights posted here, he only commentated on Leinster's game and there wasn't much to love there!
• facepalm

  11:38 PM 08/04/2014

  Out of interest, what would your decision have been were you the referee?
• facepalm

  11:35 PM 08/04/2014

  Why does the fact that his eyes were on the ball make the contact less dangerous? Payne made no attempt to compete. The actions of his body are clearly more important than the direction of his eyes. Goode came down with a sickening thud. Correct decision to give a red.
  
  What was incredible was the heart shown by Ulster. I honestly don't believe any other team in the tournament could've been that competitive given the circumstances. Gotta feel for Paddy Jackson. I so wanted Ulster to win.
• drg

  11:16 PM 08/04/2014

  Like I said below, I understand people can play the old "I was looking at the ball referee, honest.." card as they adjust their halo and angel wings, but you can't tell me that if you ever attempted to do that then you would run into the player face first.. he was more likely to do himself a world of injury before Goode..
• drg

  11:14 PM 08/04/2014

  Right here, right now, I'm saying it was not a red!
• drg

  11:13 PM 08/04/2014

  That red card for the Ulster player was the biggest crock of shit I have seen in an awful long time.
  
  I'm not being funny right, but lets say you play the whole "I want to mess up Goode by pretending I'm going for the ball" card, the last thing you are going to do is run into him face first! Even the likes of Schalk Burger and Lewis Moody who probably played most of their games concussed would be bright enough to not do that if they intended to hurt someone.
  
  All this has done has now reduce the competitiveness for the high ball.. leap in the air, if the other guy knocks you then he gets a red card... Simple. Surely the next step will be to card a player that also jumps to compete for the ball but DOESN'T catch it and instead knocks the OTHER jumping player.
  
  Absolute sham, and Eddie this is completely incomparable to the Warburton incident, especially seeing as the referee is allowed to use the big screen to see what's going on. Warburton (I would argue shouldn't have got a red) was tackling an opponent, this player (Payne is it?) was running to catch a ball and hit Goode face first.. Hardly the act of someone who has maliciousness in their mind..
• eddie-g

  10:27 PM 08/04/2014

  @themull - I wouldn't call it an awful decision. I agree with your interpretation, he had his eyes on the ball throughout, and he couldn't avoid the collision. The problem, if there is one here, is the rule about hitting a player in the air. If the ref believed it was reckless, he has to give a red.
  
  I'd compare it to the Warburton red in the last world cup - both incidents that happened so quickly in real time that it's impossible to conclude that there was any malicious intent. But for certain incidents, intent isn't supposed to be a factor, and that was the case here. Very tough on Payne and Ulster, but the ref wasn't at fault.
• themull

  10:05 PM 08/04/2014

  Also Leinster played their worst HC cup match for a number of years..Toulon didn't really have to get out of 3rd gear all game, and were it not for some handling errors in the first half they could've been out of sight after about 25 minutes...They really missed Sexton in this game..his influence and skill could have dragged leinster back into the match..instead they looked gittery all game, dropping passes and making the wrong decisions..Reddan was really poor and it would seem it was a huge mistake to leave Cronin on the subs bench..
  
  Considering how easily Toulon won, without ever really showing anything more than cruise control for most of the game, I would have to say they should be favorites to lift the cup..Munster's only chance is if they can do again what they did to Toulouse but away from home against that monster Toulon outfit, it will be a much much harder task..
• themull

  10:01 PM 08/04/2014

  Absolutely awful decision for the red card in the Ulster match.. Can clearly see the man's eyes on the ball up until the very last second, at which point there was no chance of being able to pull out..Just because he did not jump for the ball, does that then mean its is automatically a foul, even though he clearly was eyes all for the ball with his hands cupped to catch it,(up until the last half second before contact at which point there was no chance of avoiding it)...
  
  Awful decision which ultimately probably cost ulster the chance of winning the match..
• 45678

  10:00 PM 08/04/2014

  I didn't see any bias from referees, only out of Stuart barnes's gob - love Irish teams, hate Leicester
  
  However I did see some very inconsistent interpretations of the breakdown. One ruck where the referee calls hands out followed by an identical ruck where it was a free for all. It was a common theme in every game at the weekend for every team playing. I think this led to some difficulties for the players to know what was allowed, which prevented the games flowing
  
  As for the Payne red card, I don't think anyone can really say it isn't a red. Intent or not, you can't just blindly run through a player in the air and clean their legs out
• welshosprey

  9:25 PM 08/04/2014

  Incredible heart from ulster. All the games were great.
• kanpai

  9:14 PM 08/04/2014

  About Munster / Toulouse :
  
  Before starting my rant, i wan to make one thing clear : Munster deserve its win, there is no doubt about it. Whatever Toulouse would have done, we we're clearly not up to the level required, because we played poorly and stupidly for too long to expect anything else than this loss. Munster played well (even if they will need to step up for Toulon) nothing to argue about the win.
  
  Now, there's two things that really bothered me during this game :
  
  - Nigel Owens : he is surely one of the best referee in the world, and his referee style could lead to wonderful games... as long as no Irish teams are involved.
  I hate to criticize the referee, but it's been now close to 6 years that it's going on (since a certain H-cup final in 2008, and maybe more but i didn't notice before), and i can't stand it. This man become one of the most one-sided person as soon as it involve irish teams. I don't know wether it's because he likes there playstyle, or if he likes Guiness, but he suddenly don't see any irish fault. Of course, it's nothing blatant, but small decisions that each time goes for one team and not the other. And the worst is that I don't think he is doing it consciously (unlike Joubert for example). A real shame.
  
  - Video ref for fritz incident : Are you going to tell me that in Thomond Park, for a H-cup quarter final, there were only one camera (and from a really, really far point of view) that could be used ? Either Derek Bevan (video ref) is a scam (wouldn't really be surprised), or it's the irish TV director. And how can you explain that every other channel (french, british, even italian) were abble to give us more views ? I really hope there will be some consequences, because that unacceptable at this level.
  
  That said congrats to the Munstermen for there deserved victory, to the public who was great, and don't worry, Toulouse will be back next year even stronger !