Sun 1 Jul 2012 | 01:40

Sonny Bill Williams puts the shoulder in against the Highlanders

61 Comments

• kaibishin

  10:21 PM 10/07/2012

  HAHAHAHHAHAHA
• pretzel

  2:39 PM 05/07/2012

  Bit like that Bjorn Basson try video, he is a small player and will no doubt be the target of a bruiser. God help him if he gets caught as the chances of him getting smashed are 99.999%, but the chances of him actually GETTING caught are slim.
• pretzel

  2:34 PM 05/07/2012

  @Full back, not if the punishments were more severe... I don't like seeing people carded for weak punches, or scuffles, but if cards were handed out when the game was stopped on the button it would cure the problem....
• pretzel

  6:20 PM 04/07/2012

  SBW is all about money... I have seen a few interviews with him and most of the time he is on about "making money".. Perhaps all players are like this? I don't know.
  
  As for you saying that other players have done it before, I already addressed that. Brad Thorn has always come across as quite humble, nasty if you're on the wrong side of him during a game, but definitely humble. Carter, again, the guy has had a nasty run in his international career with injuries (a la Jonny Wilkinson), but even though NZ'ers worship the ground he walks on, he still remains (in my opinion) "shocked" by their attitudes towards him, almost dare I say it again... "humble"... "how can they show me so much support, it's incredible".. Whereas SBW comes across as someone who WANTS and craves attention... Almost the kind of character who thinks he should be so much higher than others and would lose in life if he wasn't such a good rugby player... (A Janitor thinking he should be a CEO...)...
  
  SBW can move to the moon and play for the man on the moons rugby team for all I care, but what I am saying is he is flitting around from team to team, code to code, sport to sport, it just doesn't show as much solid commitment to anything in particular other than himself... therefore a somewhat selfish, self centred attitude.. I'm sure he is for most part a nice guy, we apparently saw him checking on Earls the other day, so he is not completely self obsessed and of course has a heart. But I liken him to a boxer, i.e the career is his own to make or break, rather than a team player...
  
  Someone made comparisons between SBW and Gavin Henson, and honestly I can see it, only SBW has more talent to pull it off...
  
  Either way, love him, hate him, dislike him or like him, its anyone and everyones choice...
  
  For the record, I thought Shane Williams and his little "searching for the defence" gesture after a try made him a bit of a cocky little so-and-so as well...
• pretzel

  3:22 PM 04/07/2012

  I've got to say with all my tackles, I intend to make initial contact with my shoulder... I can still have my arms out and wrap almost instantaneously without needing to "fling" them round... They can go past the ball carriers body and not make any contact until after my shoulder hits first...
  
  I truly believe that technique leaves me less likely to suffer an injury to my arms (although the shoulder does take the brunt of the hit), it also means they will make less, if in fact no more ground once the hit is made (in theory anyway)... This also helps in tryline defending situations. Especially where simply wrapping a player without using your own weight and strength focussed through your shoulder is not enough to stop him before the tryline.
  
  ALL that being said however. I think shoulder charges, much like these and the ones we see in league are not "dumb rules" I think they're relevant and keep the game from becoming a silly bash fest... at least there is still control in union...
• moddeur

  2:54 PM 04/07/2012

  I play at a quite amateurish level (the lowest level there is here in France), but I am considered to be one of the better tacklers on my team (says a lot about how bad my team is :))
  But I don't get 100+kg meat-machines hurled at me in matches, so I can't really compare my technique to what you both are describing above. I mean I do get 100+kg players hurled at me, but they're more on the greasy side than muscular.
  
  I tackle a bit like a soccer goal faced with a penalty shot, that is I slow down before my opponent reaches me, place myself on the side and then hurl myself in one direction (nearly always the correct one :)).
  I'm not very tall, but very dense (everyone in my family has heavy bones, my mom even has a medical condition called "bone hyperdensity"). So I use my arms and low centre of gravity to tip and make people fall. My shoulders won't do much in my case :)
  
• 12:10 PM 04/07/2012

  I think it looked bad because he threw him. The left arm was high in my opinion, if it had been the front of the guys neck it would have been more evident. Not much to it though.
• 11:45 AM 04/07/2012

  I wouldn't go so far as to say SBW is a joke, he's achieved more than most, and to be honest I don't find him as arrogant as people are pointing out. Maybe I've only seen the good interviews. He gets noticed on the pitch, stands out and so yeah, if he has an off day it gets blown out of proportion, but I've seen worse.
  I think (the Beast aside) most Saffer forwards would think it over a bit before trying to land a punch on Sonny.
  Watch the Ireland game (the 22-19 one) and see how he calmy catches Healy's hand and lets the huff blow over. Level headed in my opinion.
  Nobody's criticising the #5 who runs in looking for trouble by the way...is he just a really nice bloke who's never played league? ;)
• pretzel

  1:28 AM 04/07/2012

  In all fairness they were probably hoping he was going to do something, he looked like he lost control and a flurry of punches would have probably ended his night, as well as the next few nights with a subsequent ban..
• rugby08

  6:52 PM 03/07/2012

  Messam is the captain so isn't going to raise his voice.
  
  The Highlanders guys punched him so yea they're probably keeping quite so they don't get introuble
• 6:02 PM 03/07/2012

  I don't know what level you play at and maybe it's irrelevant. The technique you describe is more or less the schoolboy technique, correct but ineffective if you go up against a 100kg+ players (I'm open to correction, maybe your arms are huge). If you watch Ronan O'Gara you'll see numerous examples of how, even when a player gets his shoulder down low he can get steamrolled. (mostly he's just positioned badly but not always)
  The aggressive tackling technique being coached by most at the moment is closer to what Jon describes. You start with your elbows close to your sides, you point your shoulder to the spot you want to hit and you bend your knees in order to drive into the tackle, at the point of impact you punch forward with your arms and pull them back towards yourself while still (hopefully) driving forward off your legs, resulting in a sort of bear hug. (Getting your thumbs involved could result in arthritis at an early age due to numerous breaks and dislocations :) )
  There's also the fact that alot of players get away with not wrapping because they barge their shoulder in under the ball and straighten up with their hand between the ball and the player, (preferably) keeping him on his feet at the same time. It's all well and good, I enjoy skillful defence, but technically it's not wrapping!
  I agree on the ball skills argument, too many variables in order to judge it correctly. I have difficulty in believing that league players have more ball skills than Rocokoko, Carter, O'Driscoll, Nonu, Contepomi and company. They may have more skills than the forwards but it's hardly a fair comparison to make. When you narrow it down to the backs the picture changes somewhat.
  
• 5:36 PM 03/07/2012

  So the solution would be what? If a fight breaks out stop the game? I don't agree, you'd have punches thrown to slow up the play all over the shop if you start that. I thought it wise to let the game flow as long as it was flowing. He stopped it at the appropriate time in my opinion.
  In any case I was referring more to his calm way of dealing with the players, not going all card happy on them and getting on with the game. I don't see why he would be out of his depth but I guess we're all entitled to our opinions
• breakaway

  4:54 PM 03/07/2012

  2nd tackle: in the vid that's on my screen SBW wraps his left arm around the guy's upper back and his right around his chest and throws him down. I'll stick with what I posted.
• cheyanqui

  2:21 PM 03/07/2012

  It was clear that SBW is a league guy -- notice how much he was backchatting the referee and the other guys (both Chiefs and Highlanders) were relatively quiet?
• guy

  1:52 PM 03/07/2012

  The only reason not to kick his ass is a possible yellow or read card, which means your team will have to play with one player less.
  
  That's just common sense and has got nothing to do with SBW supposed boxing skills.
• guy

  1:47 PM 03/07/2012

  That comment just made me laugh out loud behind my desk and nearly brought tears to my eyes.
  
  Classic, thank you so much!!!!!!!!!
• bondtr4der

  11:47 AM 03/07/2012

  1st tackle at around 0:03 seconds, nothing wrong with it.
  
  2nd tackle at around 0:14 seconds, SBW leads with his left elbow (high), then swings his right arm in to take the guy to ground (again, high). This one deserves a pen.
• pretzel

  11:14 AM 03/07/2012

  Probably because Brad Thorn and Dan Carter seem like decent "blokes"... Whereas the impression SBW gives off is that he is so far up his own ass that it's hard to know if he's offloading with his hands or his anus...
• moddeur

  10:31 AM 03/07/2012

  Wasn't expecting so much interest in my post!
  
  I disagree that tackles are "with the shoulder". Tackles in my book are a combination of the neck area and shoulder area locking into the side of a player, followed by arms wrapping (not swinging), grabbing (working thumbs are important here), pulling (go thumbs!!), and tipping (use the opponent's weight/shape against him). The arms are not sidelined to a simple "perfunctory movement". The arms are responsible for the success or failure of nearly all tackles. They decide where and how to apply the final pressure to tip the person down. At least that's how I play rugby.
  If I try to tackle "with the shoulder", I'll never manage to wrap my arms around. I'll just hit my opponent in the thorax with the shoulder.
  
  On the matter of League, I didn't say it was crude, I said that tackles in it are crude. In response to the above poster's use of the adjective "hard" when defining SBW's shoulder hits. Why say something is hard, when in reality it's just crude? That was the point.
  
  But you're free to defend League. I've watched a few games and found that it doesn't lift the spirit as much, but I'm not completely against it either. This is all very subjective, you'll agree. The same goes for one's perception of the brutality of rucks. I'll follow you on scrums however, I don't like the whole new concept of people driving in. It's brutal and it's poorly refereed. Players should link up first, and push later, like they used to.
  Ball handling skills in League vs Union? I don't buy that. Put 2 extra players on each side in a League game and let's see if the ball moves along as nicely.
  
• breakaway

  3:48 AM 03/07/2012

  On the first tackle, if you actually look at the video, Williams' head and eyes follow the ball and he half pulls out of the hit, he actually stands still and doesn't take another step forward. If he wanted to he could've gone right on through the guy and if there was no wrap I would have no problem with a card. But I'm OK with the penalty although I've seen worse not given.
  The second time he tackles the same guy entirely legit and dumps him on his side. How is that not OK? As SBW runs at him, the #5 puts his elbow out, Williams makes hard first contact but I can't see anything high and even you admit only to "what looks like something pretty high". Well I can't see it, none of the refs did, and I don't think you can either. Another Highlander player starts wrestling SBW off the ball and that's when the handbags come out.
  A few days ago it was all about what a good guy SBW was by showing concern for an injured Earls, now he's a nasty ego-monster. I don't buy it.
  
• bondtr4der

  12:43 AM 03/07/2012

  I'll add that while I don't see anything other than a penalty for the shoulder shown in the replay, watching it first time around it does look like he goes in for a second bite (because the first time he doesn't have a hold of the guy he's supposed to be tackling) and swings Blue #5 from what looks like something pretty high. To me, it's that second "tackle" / "judo throw" that the opposition seem to have taken offence to.
• pretzel

  12:41 AM 03/07/2012

  Interesting spin, I'd buy that actually, sounds right on the mark...
• pretzel

  12:40 AM 03/07/2012

  Judging by how much the rules change, who knows what kind of game "Rugby" might be in 2015... and who knows how much it may vary between now and 2015... It says a lot that he "hopes" to help NZ defend the title in 2015... Is that just a dream or an assumption? Surely after leaving the code you should HOPE you're let back into a team, let alone an international team...
• bondtr4der

  12:29 AM 03/07/2012

  Sonny Bill Williams reminds me of Gavin Henson: Massive talent + Bigger ego = total tosser.
• juggernauter

  10:42 PM 02/07/2012

  *they have to pay their bills
• juggernauter

  10:41 PM 02/07/2012

  Yeah, fair enough. I guess it's out of frustration. It sucks that he'll become one of those "could have beens" when he could have becomed a legend. But fair point, after all it's a job and he has to pay his wages. I won't say that he has to stay in one club for his whole life, but, for example, if he's going to Japan, OK, but go for at least 2 years and help the club develop and grow rather than only your wallet and help the game develop there.
• patrick

  8:42 PM 02/07/2012

  I do agree with some of what you've said, but there's a few things I would add to it.
  
  Be realistic, if somebody offered you more money to do your job, you might well take it. If you could travel the world and have fun doing so, thats also a positive.
  
  Yes this "disloyalty" may leave a bad taste in the mouth, but one of the features of the professional game is that fans often feel (as we effectively pay their wages) that we have a right to control their lives and critique their decisions, but they're his decisions, not ours. They get paid by someone either way, so what gives us the right to complain?
  
  He should still stay in Union though!
• 5:32 PM 02/07/2012

  Check the video sledgey, he hits the number 5 twice in a row with a shoulder, albeit he finishes with a weird takedown tackle where he throw him to the ground, illegal as well.
  
  My main problem with him was the chat.
  
  In regards to his loyalty, it hurts him more than anyone else. Perhaps if he'd moved to nz earlier, he may have started the rwc final. Instead, he comes on late, throws a league like shoulder charge and gets a yellow. Only post rwc has he developed into the nz 12.
  
  His constant moving may hurt him again. He said himself, league and union are different games. Going back to it will not help his 2015 rwc chances.
• guy

  2:00 PM 02/07/2012

  If he keeps this attitude, I will find it harder and harder to enjoy seeing him play.
  
  Imho he is slowly becoming the Christiano Ronaldo of rugby: incredibly skillfull but a huge tosser.
• pretzel

  11:14 AM 02/07/2012

  The rest of the stuff aside, he still seems like a **** in this video...
• pretzel

  11:13 AM 02/07/2012

  I don't see what is so "hater" about disliking SBW in this video. He shows complete disrespect to the referee, he shows a complete disregard for the rules, and he is more than happy to continue a dust up and in some way continue to provoke it, in order to defend his "illegal" manoeuvre...
  
  If he wants to shoulder charge, or check (both illegal in the game if you didn't know) then that is fine, but to then try and whine and weasel his way out of it is ridiculous. I (up until a few years ago) was a fan of putting the boot on someone who was on the wrong side. I still do it every now and again to this day (not as frequently as the past due to law changes sadly)... But if the referee pings me for it, I don't stand there mouthing off, looking like a moron and trying to act innocent, Yeup, I did it, why try and deny it... If 100-200 people at a standard home crowd can see it when I play then how many of the tens of thousands of people at this match (if it drew that crowd) saw it on the big screen, or on their tv's at home?
  
  There is no such thing as "Hard rugby", sadly its either rugby or its illegal. When I put the boot on someone it's illegal, if I get a card for it (a yellow once before!) I don't gripe around saying "well it's hard rugby".. I do mention after the match that a couple years ago there would have been no notice of this, but I don't start off saying "I play hard rugby"
  
• moddeur

  10:17 AM 02/07/2012

  Since I don't consider myself an SBW hater, I'll answer for those who do.
  SBW is a great player with a lot of decent skills, but he often leads his tackles with the shoulder (when it's not with a horizontal arm, or an elbow). This is just stuff he learned in League. He should get over it. But it's taking him a long time to do so ...
  
  The greatest thing about Union is that it's a challenge to stop a fully-launched bulldozer with your arms and upper body strength only. In League all you need to do is smash into people shoulder first: takes less skill, and does a lot more damage to both players. In other words it's not very interesting, and I certainly wouldn't call it hard rugby. Simple rugby, rather. Or crude rugby perhaps.
  
• breakaway

  10:15 AM 02/07/2012

  A lot of moralizing going on here. It was a shoulder charge, I've seen a lot worse and plenty of them.. a penalty's fine. The ref did OK, let play go on while the assistant ref kept an eye on things. Then there was a bit of mouthing off and pushing and shoving. No big deal.
  As far as SBW's career, start living in the real world, at this level players are moving round all over the place trying to make the most of their few years at the top because it doesn't last for long. They have every right to look after themselves and their families however they want. I don't think the other players are going around muttering about loyalty, they're saying 'good luck' and many of them are wishing they had the talent and drawing power to get the sort of opportunities that SBW is being offered.
• rugby08

  8:44 AM 02/07/2012

  The other side of the coin is Nigel Owens gets too emotional and flustered most of the time.
• rugby08

  8:42 AM 02/07/2012

  You're overthinking way too much
• sledgey

  6:52 AM 02/07/2012

  Well put!
• sledgey

  6:50 AM 02/07/2012

  Where do you get "same player"?
• sledgey

  6:49 AM 02/07/2012

  Wow a lot of haters in here!
  The so called shoulder charge was no more than a check, thats hard rugby no more no less.
  I saw an All Black elbow almost knock a guy out last week, does it make a diference if he was running with the ball or not.....no, thats just hard rugby.
  As is being tossed to the ground like a rag doll, just hard rugby, you getting the picture yet haters?
• 3:22 AM 02/07/2012

  Agreed with the comments about the ref. He was clueless to the fight and then allowed swb to rant and disrespect him. As much as Nigel pisses me off, he would have shut swb up or given him a yellow.
  
  Both tackles were shoulder charges, ones a penalty, two consecutive on the same player is a yellow.
  
• karimabuseer

  2:38 AM 02/07/2012

  Hear hear.
• ando

  2:21 AM 02/07/2012

  I don't think the shoulder charge was worth a yellow card, but I'm surprised the ref didn't put him back in his box when he kept arguing back.
• pretzel

  11:13 PM 01/07/2012

  ..."Allah-complex"...
• pretzel

  11:12 PM 01/07/2012

  It all really comes down to the surrounding team mates... Money is always going to be the winner for the player, the management and the union. But team mate attitude cannot be easily bought. It is difficult, do you pick the guy that has been in the team making the best progress, is a brilliant player and has been solidly with you for the last 5 years, or do you pick the guy who is a little bit better but will likely hop on the next plane to the next wad of cash?
  
  When I was away at university, I use to go back when the uni team wasn't playing and play for my old side, there were a couple of local players which used to get upset by us "uni boys" for coming back and knocking them out the side, especially seeing as we didn't train with them during the week (as we were at uni) and we didn't play week in week out with their team. Can you blame me for wanting to play rugby? No. Is it fair to pick me over someone who dedicates his time and effort TO the team EVERY week? No, its completely unfair. But if more players had not wanted me and the others then we wouldn't have played.
  
  I think I had a fairly valid reason....even though it was unfair...so if the rest of the team feel let down by SBW's lack of commitment through the friendlies, the summer and autumn series etc, and him only coming back for "glory".. then that could keep him from the team...
• katman

  8:50 PM 01/07/2012

  SBW's god-complex ruins any chance of respect for the player he is. Either of those two shoulder charges should have seen him cool off for 10 minutes. And to then go on at the ref like he's one of the blokes in the scuffle is pretty far from on. I'd have sent him to bed with a red for that.
  
  As for his loyalty... from League to Union to Boxing (while his mates train) to Japan to League and then back to Union? If I were a coach I'd tell him to shove his mesmerising offloads. Nonu's better value.
• ando

  8:36 PM 01/07/2012

  Wholeheartedly agree with your last two paragraphs! League and boxing can have him...
• juggernauter

  8:23 PM 01/07/2012

  SBW has lots of attributes. He's big, madly skilled, powerful and smart. He can draw in defenders and unleash temmates. But what he doesn't have is LOYALTY nor COMMITMENT. He didn't have it with the Bulldogs back in 2008, he didn't have it with the Crusaders, he doesn't have it with the Chiefs and he clearly doesn't have it with Rugby Union.
  
  It's sad, if you ask me. Because a player of his calibre could leave an inmense legacy. Look at Carter or McCaw, or O'Driscoll or Mortlock: commited to the cause, don't go after the money but after the glory. Loyalty to your teammates. Loyalty to the sport you love. SBW is just a showman. He can't commit. He thinks he's bigger than rugby. And that sucks.
  
  The fact that he's going for a short stint on Japan (chasing money), then back to NRL (chasing money), then back to Union so that he can make the All Blacks squad for 2015 (chasing the glory that onlt rugby can give him) just sums him up. It just disgusts me that the NZRU will probably be waving their tails in waiting for him to get enough cash and then be admitted back to the All Blacks as if nothing have happened. As if he didn't turn his back on rugby for some green. And who could blame them? He's extraordinary on the pitch.
  
  I think this guy just doesn't fit within the values of our sport. OK, it's professional now, OK, money will always have a say in the outcome, but it's the integrity, the commitment and the legacy that the legends build that keep it as the best sport in the world.
  
  Stay in League, box, dance, make pies, whatever you want SBW. But you don't mess with our sport.
• reality

  8:12 PM 01/07/2012

  Unfortunately, punctuation is lost on some people.
• suntzu

  8:03 PM 01/07/2012

  You're right he did say "F*ck off"... that's a red card offense...
• pretzel

  7:56 PM 01/07/2012

  SBW comes across as a bit of a "See you next tuesday" in this video... Has he reached the pinnacle of greatness in his own mind, therefore deeming himself untouchable? League player, union player, boxer, what next in the mountain of awesomeness in SBW's mind?
  
  Or am I just over analysing a scuffle?
• ando

  6:56 PM 01/07/2012

  I think what I enjoyed most about this little tussle was the banter between the players themselves and with the ref, as well as the commentary. Classic stuff.
  
  SBW seems like a bit of an arrogant c*ck though, doesn't he? Plus not a fan of how he talked back and disrespected the ref. At one point there I'm not sure but did I hear him tell the ref to "f*ck off" after the ref said the penalty would be against him for a shoulder charge?
• moddeur

  6:48 PM 01/07/2012

  Hold on, I am more or less saying the same thing that you are saying (about SBW's League-thuggery).
  I put "tackle" between quotes because what SBW does is NOT a tackle in the Union book!
  
• rugby08

  6:21 PM 01/07/2012

  Nothing more than a penalty. Hoeta was a bit lairy and should of had a talking to. How the touch judge didn't see that who knows.
• rugby08

  6:19 PM 01/07/2012

  Yea agree with you there Gallego. The reff looked out of his depth to me
• suntzu

  6:15 PM 01/07/2012

  I love to watch this guy play but wow the way he behaves himself when being talked to has just made him lose a lot of the respect I had for him... I've carded players for talking to me like that in amateur french divisions... indeed, go to league, or actually, play soccer, you'd fit in just fine over there Mr SBW...
• reality

  5:52 PM 01/07/2012

  I think the same. He just kept on going for people first of all in the big dust-up, and then wouldn't shut his mouth when the referee was talking. If the referee wasn't so spineless he would have given Williams a yellow for mouthing off at him.
• moddeur

  5:31 PM 01/07/2012

  SBW is a League player who just happens to enjoy playing Union but doesn't quite get it yet (even Chris Ashton has made more progress in that area).
  
  It's not the first time that I've seen him "tackle" (between big "" quotes) with an elbow, a shoulder, or a Japanese high punch, in typical League-thug fashion.
  
  The only sad part is that he's not yet capable of admitting he does it, and instead prefers to complain about being "punched" (between huge "" quotes) by an "angry" opponent.
  
• 5:25 PM 01/07/2012

  I was expecting a lot worse from the title.
  Sonny Bill Williams Tackling Without Using Arms = Penalty
  Sonny Bill Williams Talking Without Using Brain, Ears or Common Bloody Sense = Yellow Card
• gallego

  5:19 PM 01/07/2012

  Good refereeing? He had a fight that went on for over 30 seconds (from 0:17 onwards) before pausing the game, that was plain stupid.
• 5:09 PM 01/07/2012

  Whatever decision the referee makes (in this case the right one, penalty and nothing more) I find SBW's attitude pretty vile, he may be a great player but that doesn't give him the right to speak to a referee like that. The sooner he is in league the better if he doesn't change his tune!
• poccio

  5:09 PM 01/07/2012

  I thought the ref was going to give a white card...seemd like the perfect time to do so since the assistant ref basically said he hadn't seen everything..
• 4:45 PM 01/07/2012

  Good refereeing in my opinion, bit of a warning no need for cards. Thought the commentators remark was a bit daft "we see that every week", we see off-sides and off your feet at the ruck every week as well, it doesn't mean it stops being a penalty.
  
  As for SBW move to league, he only young once, he's right to do exactly what he wants. I don't imagine the All Blacks will be stuck for centres to take his place.