Wed 13 Jun 2018 | 01:39

Ugly stamp angers neutrals in France vs New Zealand U20s match

33 Comments

• aotea

  1:01 AM 23/06/2018

  maybe talk to the RFU about cowering as it seems they fine teams if they dont adhere to their silly rules when it comes to the haka - when people have to resort to denigrating a whole country over something we have no control over well it says more about you than us eh reality?
• dirtyflanker

  12:31 PM 18/06/2018

  As far as i can see rugby is getting a little soft don't you think! if rucking was still a proper part of the game then players like Richie McCaw would have spent less time laying on the ball on the wrong side of the ruck.
• drg

  11:05 PM 16/06/2018

  For the record, I disagree with Oliver regarding Grosso, as awful an injury as it was, I genuinely believe the k ly person that should have been punished there was Cane for the arm to the jaw.
  
  He fell into Tuungafasi.
  
  Horrific, unpleasant, but unfortunately and personally I'm glad there hasn't been a sanction for a complete accident.
• drg

  7:50 PM 16/06/2018

  Mate like a politician, if.you have to repeat yourself then you wouldn't be answering the questions honestly or at all...
• oliver

  5:54 PM 16/06/2018

  Links:
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12072156
  
  https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/xv-de-france/2017-2018/xv-de-france-remy-grosso-s-exprime-pour-la-premiere-fois-apres-sa-grave-blessure_sto6807407/story.shtml
• oliver

  5:53 PM 16/06/2018

  of course you are entitled to your opinion.
  And to be honest at this point, I am venting more than replying to you in particular. So anyway here goes:
  
  Brunel is being diplomatic. He's a guest in NZ.
  Grosso himself is much more straight-forward. Excerpts from an interview to a french journalist:
  "I am certain Tuungafasi could have avoided the hit."
  "If us Frenchies do the same, we are punished".
  "the ABs are certainly not reffed like other teams".
  
  By the way, Grosso has a hole in his forehead above the eye and will have to get surgery. Nice souvenir from the tour?
  
  Finally this is what the NZ Herald says about this series of tests:
  
  "This refereeing madness has to stop before test rugby sees its credibility, or what's left of it, disappear as quickly as the semblance of a second test contest did."
  "Rarely if ever has an international side been so badly shafted as they have been in this series. Their treatment has been farcically bad. A wrongly shown yellow card cost them the game last week and then a ludicrously harsh red cost them in Wellington."
  
  and this is the kiwi press!
  Personnally I don't even want to watch the games anymore. I never thought I'd say this but my attention will go to the football WC for now.
• thefrontrow

  12:46 PM 16/06/2018

  Actually Olivier, we have been and could still both go on and on and on, at this point do we just agree to disagree?
• thefrontrow

  12:43 PM 16/06/2018

  Well, I'd be repeating myself again so I'll leave it alone.
  
  On the Haka, you guys are including so many Kiwis and Polynesians in your teams you really should be all doing your own hakas : )
• reality

  3:06 PM 15/06/2018

  I think the bias is there for everyone to see (outside of New Zealand). There are many incidents like this and like the ones mentioned above (BOD, Hore etc.) where All Blacks get off scot free, and the 2011 world cup final was the most farcically biased refereeing I've ever seen. The fact that it takes 50 penalties or whatever on average is partly due to 'intelligent' penalties, but intelligence can only explain a part of the enormous disparity.
  
  In addition to that, the New Zealand bias is evidenced by the fact that their precious haka is so protected and teams get fined if they don't cower sufficiently during it.
• jorge

  1:17 PM 15/06/2018

  Exactomundo.
• oliver

  8:13 AM 15/06/2018

  did I miss your point on injury? Or did you just not find one exemple of what I asked? (again: unpunished acts comparable to the BOD, Grosso or Hore vs Davies incidents, where the victim has to leave the field injured, with no card pulled).
  And no one said the AB's are the baddies. It's about refs and citings.
  
  As for yellow cards: some guys with more time on their hands than me have compiled stats and on average "South Africa have received a yellow card for every 11 penalties conceded. For Australia it is every 12 penalties. However, for New Zealand, a yellow card is brandished on average only once every 43 penalties." (2015)
  
  By the way the citing process in my view is VERY consistent.....when you take into account the nationality of the offender. (by the way the fact kiwis view the BOD thing as "careless" is unbelievable to me and shows how strong the bias is. It was off the ball! How can it be careless to spear tackle when the ball is long gone?)
  
  I did not mean to get into a long debate here, but oh well. Anyways I don't pretend to be unbiased myself. Especially when it comes to the French team haha.....So let's hope the next game is a good one!
• drg

  12:38 AM 15/06/2018

  Ok, personally I look at this as a neutral "it doesn't really bother me" sort of stance. At the end of the day, I watch a rugby match to see good rugby match and hope that whoever deserves the win wins...
  
  I think that the AB's are number 1 in the world through their mindset, their depth, and the fact that the game is almost above all else over there. Sure they get the rub of the green sometimes, but so do others.
  
  However as I mentioned above, why do Samoans and Pacific island teams seem to get punished worse than most other teams? We've seen players given cards in an instant based on how a tackle looks, but under review, there is nothing wrong with it? I can only assume it's referee bias, not necessarily because they hate "great, hulking brown skinned men", but because the Pacific islanders perhaps build up a reputation of playing maybe that bit too hard and a bit too close to the line.
  
  Can you disagree with that assessment? Or do you have another spin on it?
  
  So with that in mind, is it unrealistic to assume that the opposite could happen to any other team?
  
  I understand you made reference to AB yellow cards, it seems that they are being given quite a few these days, but I'd be interested to see the stats on cards for all teams over the years and whether that can be put down to a more disciplined AB team? Referees just being rubbish? Or as I suggested before, perhaps individual behaviour is good on a whole so very few bad behaviour, or perhaps the players committing penalties are always right below the threshold for cards?
  
  Not arguing feelings, but the stats make for questions that maybe someone somewhere can answer?
• thefrontrow

  6:14 PM 14/06/2018

  Ref to my comment to Dr G below. Maybe you're not seeing it, and that's my point. You've missed my point on injury and I don't agree with you there or concede the point : ) I think everyone esle gets away with a fair bit for some pretty bad foul play, but noone admits it of their own teams and are happy to pretend there is a big bad guy in the all blacks. The UK and French fans might think the ABs get outside help and special treatment but that means nothing really. People say the same about the Aussie cricket team, or the Pat's or Steelers, every sport will have this re the best team but it doesn't mean it's true. Particularly in rugby when there are plenty of examples of the same thing - people getting away with foul play. Mate, everyone said the earth was flat too.
  
  Anyway didn't the All Blacks get the most yellow cards last year?
• thefrontrow

  5:39 PM 14/06/2018

  I see what you're saying, but in my view the subconscious bias sits with the fans (our good selves at RugbyDump for example) rather than the refs or citing committees. Referees and citing committees are horribly inconsistent accross the board, and I think that even in such learned circles as this there is a bias toward only seeking information to suit our own narratives. I, of course, am a pillar of reason and logic and have never unjustifiably accused the French of being filthy or the South African refs of being cheats ; )
• oliver

  5:26 PM 14/06/2018

  you know we could argue about this and different specific incidents all night. But you admitted yourself not one of these resulted in an injured player leaving the field.
  Also it's not about the French here, it's about the AB's and pretty much the whole rugby world says they get special treatment. The only ones who disagree are kiwis....
  To me the fact remains: 1 red card in 50 years proves the ABs are not punished the same way as other teams. It's clear as day but if you don't want to see it, you won't. And when they did get that red card, guess what happened? Strangely they lost.
  
  What pains me is the ABs dont need that, they are number one for a reason, they're better. But they would not dominate the sport so much if they did not get a bit of outside help.
• drg

  5:12 PM 14/06/2018

  Ah.... I guess we should be praising the referee for not going over there and stamping on the Frenchman himself!
• drg

  5:09 PM 14/06/2018

  I'm not sure there is an underground meeting place where cloaked and hooded figures (the kind of hoods that cast a large shadow over their face) all meet carrying flaming torches to discuss rugby or how Adidas can sell more shirts... that being said, there does seem to be some sort of underlying, perhaps subconscious, theme going on when it comes to the AB's. They do seem to escape a lot of sanctions which are perhaps more obvious, or heavily sanctioned with other teams. Whether that is due to the fact they commit less fouls, have less individual bad history or what, I do not know. However when you consider that perhaps Pacific island teams are more heavily punished across many different aspects of the game, it's only obvious to assume that there is a certain other nation, or type of person that is likely to be less punished...
  
  Going back to the individual history point I made.. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but a lot of nations have "THAT guy"... SA had a few of them, eye poker Schalk, everything Bakkies, England had Grewcock, Clermont had Cuddles... I mean you can even say Italy's Parisse is a marked man due to his frustrations being vented in the manner it is. But who does/did NZ have? Only two that come to mind are probably Nonu and SBW and that's because of their shite tackling techniques on occasion...
  
  Just a note: I don't think the majority of folk on here tend to pay a huge amount of rugby attention to general social media. I know better than to look at the comment sections on youtube because of the pathetic bile spewed about. I think a lot of people base their views on either the hard cases they can produce time and time again (I can't), or that sort of feeling that seems to float around NZ..
• oliver

  2:46 PM 14/06/2018

  "Why would there be a global rugby conspiracy to let the All Blacks away with murder? "
  Probably because the AB's are the biggest franchise in world rugby.
  I'm sure Adidas sells more AB jerseys abroad than in NZ, as they stand as a symbol of rugby the world over. It's big business. My 2 cents.
  
  Anyways I think one red card in 50 years is a pretty clear sign that the AB's are reffed differently.
  
  Also, if you can find exemples of unpunished acts in international games, comparable to the BOD, Grosso or Hore vs Davies incidents (ie where the victim has to leave the field injured), I'm all ears.
• jorge

  1:35 PM 14/06/2018

  One has to remember that the referee is a former professional scrum-half.
• leggaj5

  11:58 AM 14/06/2018

  Of course this requires a referee who understands such nuances of the game...
• leggaj5

  11:58 AM 14/06/2018

  I feel like giving away a penalty is more incentive to roll away than a stamp. Punishing an offender by slotting 3 points or getting a lineout deep in the opposition's half seems like it would resonate more. That said, I've never been on the receiving end; as a scrumhalf I'm not inclined to get caught up in things such as "tackling" and "rucking." I did try to dish this out one time though and was promptly yellow carded.
• colombes

  11:04 AM 14/06/2018

  Not angered, always amused.
  The comedy show continues next saturday.
• drg

  10:51 AM 14/06/2018

  I've said it before that the tightening of laws has brought in a new type of reaction and that was feigning injury. It makes more sense to hit the deck and roll around in "agony" than it does to react. However the flip side is also pent up aggression.
  
  Not defending the kiwi, but perhaps this is far from the second (taking into account your mention of a prior effort) time a french player has been in his way, perhaps the french were doing very well at causing issues which could easily be sorted with a boot... if the referee is slow to react to those incidents, or does not react at all, it's no surprise things like this can blow up.
  
  The age of professionalism is the issue really. Now someone is no doubt paid to review footage over and over to find the extra few inches/feet that can be gained by exploiting something, it's worth any teams while to pay someone because if they win, it's more money anyway... etc.. but the game of old, in it's imperfect state, with slightly more fluid applications of laws, not the (really good) hundreds of camera angles, etc etc.. have just forced things to be tightened down... ends up with no one being overly happy with anything..
• drg

  10:43 AM 14/06/2018

  AB aggressor and French victim....perfect recipe really..
  
  Had it been a Samoan on any other team (other than France, Arg, or Italy) it'd probably be a ban that exceeds all those related bans put together...
• oliver

  9:24 AM 14/06/2018

  Interesting how the "related posts" show long bans for other cases of stamping.....
  
  But as I said before, move along, nothing to see here folks!
• im1

  8:09 AM 14/06/2018

  He was rolling away though, no?
  
  I do think there is a place for some good old shoe pie, and with the Charvis one I am inclined to agree with the Australians. Sure, they really go for it, which may be a bit over the top, but they are focussing on his ribs and midrift i.e. not the face or joints.
  
  The kiwi 9 was frustrated because his team was losing and he was careless/reckless/dangerous. He did the same a a ruck just before but didn't catch anyone. But this time he got what appears to be the face and the TMO just brushed it off with one replay.
  
  Perhaps in the good old days, because players knew what they could get away with, they made sure that they weren't doing it any where near the oppo's head, which you could argue made it safer. But nowadays, because they are not allowed to "gently remove" players on the wrong side with the sole of their boots, they end up just proper stamping on the more sensitive and dangerous areas of the body.
  
  It seems odd that the under 20 tournament has some new protocols in place for player safety, yet this incident was hardly looked at. I imagine if the kiwi 9 had caught the french player just above the nipple line then he probably would have been sent off and banned....
• drg

  8:08 AM 14/06/2018

  "this" being the video on this page, rather than the video posted by Pickay.
  
  I suppose scrum halves are always quite tetchy, Stringer was always a player I recall who would do his best to step on a player rather than over a player just to remind them. 10's are normally the quiet OCD ones that like to lay everything out in its exact place and you know to just leave them to it, 9's on the other hand are just those sorts of guys that if you need some tape and they have some, they'll only give you a small piece because "it's my special tape"... Be a dick just because..
  
  As for this Frenchman, he may never develop the "gtfo the way" response, because the powers that be removed rucking, so now players have no incentive...
• finedisregard

  12:20 AM 14/06/2018

  Roll away, little tadpole and get on your feet. You can't play rugby on your back.
  
  Rucking yesterday, rucking today, rucking forever.
• 10stonenumber10

  10:02 PM 13/06/2018

  were we watching the same videos? NSW are going mountaineering, 8 or 10 boots trampling all over the Lions. The only difference is Renton trying to keep it subtle... or as subtle as a boot to the head/neck can be.
  
  If you're going to be a dick, give the other guy a chance to give one back. Attacking people blindside/while in a vulnerable position is downright cowardly. The Lions expected it. The French guy is too young to have the "get the F out the way ASAP" response when he's on the wrong side.
• drg

  9:17 PM 13/06/2018

  Agreed, but this was more of a stamp than a step, which was more accepted...
• pickay

  5:27 PM 13/06/2018

  Yes I know, stamping is bad, mkay! But to be honest, some small part of me still feels like this was actually still quite within the spirit of the game. Used to be quite normal that being on the wrong side of a ruck was always going to hurt. But sure, I know it's 2018 and we have gotten rid of a lot of this stuff, and it is probably mostly for the better. But the French guy can feel lucky he didn't play back in 2001:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8YnYNLVL7c
  
  aaaahhh the good old days... :D
• 4:42 PM 13/06/2018

  it did have the desired effect though.
• drg

  4:19 PM 13/06/2018

  At least the French will be somewhat calmed by the fact they won the match. I'd predict all hell would break loose had this been a close loss - and in some respects, rightly so.